WineXpert Eclipse Stags Leap Merlot

[GaDawg]

I opened a bottle last night. The only deviation from the instructions was I added the 90g of oak cubes after clearing for 6 weeks. It Wes really good and should be great by Christmas !

 

[Boatboy24]

I opened a bottle last night. The only deviation from the instructions was I added the 90g of oak cubes after clearing for 6 weeks. It Wes really good and should be great by Christmas !

I bottled Saturday morning. Had a little less than a glass leftover and drank that with lunch. Wow, it's going to be good. Mine is a couple weeks short of a year old at this point. I got 29 bottles. 24 are being stashed away, with 5 on the rack for testing, beginning in a few months.

 

[jgmann67]

On the question of oak. I am of the opinion that oak is a finite ingredient. If I add 60g or 90g after about 6 weeks it has given up all it has to give. I could let it set on the oak cubes another 6 mo. and what it would add would be negligible.

So you would transfer to another carboy? What do you think as far as tannins?

 

[GaDawg]

So you would transfer to another carboy? What do you think as far as tannins?

Yes I cleared the wine in another carboy. Sorry but I am not the one to ask about tannins. Hopefully one of our on line buds can help with tannins.

 

[Boatboy24]

Yes I cleared the wine in another carboy. Sorry but I am not the one to ask about tannins. Hopefully one of our on line buds can help with tannins.

Like most kits, I think this one benefits from additional tannin. I added 1tsp of Grand Cru to the secondary.

 

[jgmann67]

Like most kits, I think this one benefits from additional tannin. I added 1tsp of Grand Cru to the secondary.

Where I am in the process, can I still add tannin? My LHBS only had some LD Carlson "Wine Tannin," so I picked up an ounce to play with.

 

[ceeaton]

Jim,

I've got a 100g bag of Tannin FT Rouge, says to use during fermentation. Maybe one of the veterans has used it later in the process. I'll just bag some up and throw it in the 375ml bottle box. You can find instructions on how to use it online at either MoreWine or I think maybe Scotts Labs makes it? MoreWine says to use within 6 months and it's about half way there already.

Edit: How about 1.8g of Tannin Riche Extra? Says to use 0.2 to 0.4g/gal at least three weeks before bottling? Forgot I had it and have to order some more because I was planning on treating 10 gallons of Merlot I made this spring from juice bucket/grapes. Yours if you want it. Actually looks like it may have absorbed some moisture, but I haven't opened the package (probably why MoreWine has a 6 month expiration on that also).

Double edit: http://morewinemaking.com/products/tannin-riche-extra.html

 

[Boatboy24]

Where I am in the process, can I still add tannin? My LHBS only had some LD Carlson "Wine Tannin," so I picked up an ounce to play with.

I've used them in primary, secondary and during aging. I'd minimize the use of the LD Carlson and go with FT Rouge, Tannin Riche or Tannin. Riche Extra. I noticed @sour_grapes mentioned how bad it tasted the other day. And I complained of wines with sour/bitter taste a little while back. In retrospect, I think some of the wines I was complaining about were wines where I used LD Carlson in primary or secondary. I need to go back to my notes to confirm, but the timing would be about right.

 

[JordanKnudson]

Obnoxious noob questions about this kit

Hi guys! So, I'm a beer brewer, but my mother in law does not like beer, so she bought this Eclipse merlot kit and said, "make this for me." I've gone ahead and done some reading on wine making, and overall it doesn't seem terribly complicated, which I'm relieved about! All the additives and racking and the degassing process make me nervous as a brewer, but it seems like you all trust them, so I will too.

Since this kit is a fair monetary investment, I want to get it right (not to mention that it's always good practice to keep the MIL happy). I plan to pretty much just follow the kit instructions. However, I wonder if any of you could provide thoughts on that. Is it best to just do exactly as the instructions say? Are there simple little tweaks that make a better wine? (I ask because so many beer kits come with instructions that run a bit counter to best practices in favor of speedy turnaround).

Here are a few specific questions that I have. Also, if you can think of anything I've missed, please share! (I know that these questions might be better suited for the beginner's forum, but since I will be doing the specific kit on this thread, I thought I'd ask you guys here...sorry if it isn't the right place).

1. How does degassing not oxidize the alcohol? And is it really necessary? I've seen some people say that they only degas when they do kits, but not when they use grapes. Why?

2. Is the projected fermentation and clearing time of 8 weeks really ideal? Would more time in either primary or secondary yield any benefits? (I assume not in primary, once fermentation is complete, but I guess I'm wondering more about bulk aging in secondary). I have nothing but time, and I want to get this right.

3. Are the various additives all necessary? I know they are there for a reason, but I don't fully understand what they all do. (Again, beer brewer here...I only use metabisulfate to remove chloramines from my municipal water).

4. I guess there is top-up water used. My instinct is to use store-bought distilled water for this. Is there any reason to go a different route? I know exactly zero about mineral profiles in wine, kit or otherwise, but this is a big deal in beer and I would assume it would be when it comes to wine, too.

5. I know that the recommended fermentation temperatures (low to mid 70s, if I recall correctly) help in getting co2 out of solution and with tannin extraction from the grape skins, but is it really best to *start* fermentation at that temperature? Does it not make more sense to start a bit lower (maybe mid to upper 60s) and ramp up after the growth phase is mostly complete?

6. Any other "best practices" that I should absolutely be aware of going into this kit? (Obviously sanitation, which I have on lock).

I really appreciate any advice you have. In the meantime, I'm reading lots in the beginner forum, and some eBooks that I've seen recommended. I'm excited for this new venture!

 

[Kiwisholland]

I would plan to bulk age the kit in carboy or barrel. If you bulk age right, and for a long enough time, the wine should l degas on its own. I would skip the sorbate, not needed on a red, and *may* contribute to "kit taste".

I get spring water from the store in gallon jugs. You'll want the minerals that distilled won't have.

Hopefully others more experienced than me will chime in. Lots of info here if you do a search

 

[jgmann67]

I'll try to answer to the extent of my knowledge:

1. How does degassing not oxidize the alcohol? And is it really necessary? I've seen some people say that they only degas when they do kits, but not when they use grapes. Why?

You can degas simply by leaving your wine age in the carboy at a higher temp (above 70*). You can also degas by putting your wine under vacuum with a bit of agitation.


But, no - when done properly, you won't oxidize your wine.

2. Is the projected fermentation and clearing time of 8 weeks really ideal? Would more time in either primary or secondary yield any benefits? (I assume not in primary, once fermentation is complete, but I guess I'm wondering more about bulk aging in secondary). I have nothing but time, and I want to get this right.

The time in the directions is a guidepost. Depending on a handful of factors, the wine will move through the process faster or slower. Better to look at the SG o some objective standard other than time.

3. Are the various additives all necessary? I know they are there for a reason, but I don't fully understand what they all do. (Again, beer brewer here...I only use metabisulfate to remove chloramines from my municipal water).

This answer depends on who you talk to and what your individual tastes are.

Personally, I won't use the Sorbate. But, I favor more oak than is typically included in the kit. Otherwise, I'll do the kit close to how the directions say.


4. I guess there is top-up water used. My instinct is to use store-bought distilled water for this. Is there any reason to go a different route? I know exactly zero about mineral profiles in wine, kit or otherwise, but this is a big deal in beer and I would assume it would be when it comes to wine, too.

I think that this is true. My grandfather was an executive at Thomas' English muffins. They'll tell you that the water makes all the difference.

I've switched to using nothing but spring water when getting to six gallons in the primary. To top up between rackings, I'd use either wine I made or comparable commercial wines.

5. I know that the recommended fermentation temperatures (low to mid 70s, if I recall correctly) help in getting co2 out of solution and with tannin extraction from the grape skins, but is it really best to *start* fermentation at that temperature? Does it not make more sense to start a bit lower (maybe mid to upper 60s) and ramp up after the growth phase is mostly complete?

In my limited experience, yes. Your must is best when started in the optimal range. Beyond that, reasonable temps and hitting your SG is what's most important.

6. Any other "best practices" that I should absolutely be aware of going into this kit? (Obviously sanitation, which I have on lock).

I'm sure everyone will give you some kernel that will improve your end product. I'll start with: Be patient. Don't rush your kit. The directions are just a set of guideposts and there's nothing hard and fast about them.

When primary fermentation slows to 1.000 - 1.010, rack to a carboy. Then, let it go to 0.990 - 0.992 if the directions say ferment to dry.

 

[sour_grapes]

I am far from an expert, but I will give some thoughts on your well-thought-out questions. I do agree with most of what Kiwis and JGmann have said.

1. How does degassing not oxidize the alcohol? And is it really necessary? I've seen some people say that they only degas when they do kits, but not when they use grapes. Why?

Degassing is not NECESSARY, as the wine will degas on its own given sufficient time (~6 mos to a year in a carboy). If you wish to bottle more quickly than that, you will need to degas it, either by vigorous stirring or by vacuum degassing.
If you are using a drill-mounted stirrer to degas, you can avoid creating a vortex while stirring by reversing the drill direction as needed. If you do not create a vortex, you will not suffer much O2 exposure. And, frankly, a little O2 doesn't hurt your wine -- it helps soften a young wine.
Personally, I think that any perceived difference in degassing tendency between kits and fresh grapes is hooey. The CO2 doesn't know how old the grapes are!

2. Is the projected fermentation and clearing time of 8 weeks really ideal? Would more time in either primary or secondary yield any benefits? (I assume not in primary, once fermentation is complete, but I guess I'm wondering more about bulk aging in secondary). I have nothing but time, and I want to get this right.

You are on the right track: Primary is a given, but extending your "secondary" fermentation time and aging after that in bulk will help. Read this article:
https://winemakermag.com/blogs/making-your-kit-wine-shine-redeaux

3. Are the various additives all necessary? I know they are there for a reason, but I don't fully understand what they all do. (Again, beer brewer here...I only use metabisulfate to remove chloramines from my municipal water).

No, do not add the sorbate unless you intend to add sugar (backsweeten) after fermentation. I doubt you will be sweetening this Merlot unless your MIL insists upon it! The k-meta serves to guard against microbial infections and oxidation, so add it as directed.

4. I guess there is top-up water used. My instinct is to use store-bought distilled water for this. Is there any reason to go a different route? I know exactly zero about mineral profiles in wine, kit or otherwise, but this is a big deal in beer and I would assume it would be when it comes to wine, too.

Can't help you too much here. I use tap water. If your water is decent, I would not fear using it. On the other hand, 7 liters of spring water is pretty cheap, so do what pleases your gut.

5. I know that the recommended fermentation temperatures (low to mid 70s, if I recall correctly) help in getting co2 out of solution and with tannin extraction from the grape skins, but is it really best to *start* fermentation at that temperature? Does it not make more sense to start a bit lower (maybe mid to upper 60s) and ramp up after the growth phase is mostly complete?

Sounds reasonable. I don't think it will matter much unless you go very high or very low.

Is it best to just do exactly as the instructions say? Are there simple little tweaks that make a better wine? (I ask because so many beer kits come with instructions that run a bit counter to best practices in favor of speedy turnaround).

The tweaks that are most commonly espoused here are: following a slower schedule, adding additional tannins, and changing the strain of yeast. These are the only ones that I do.

 

[JordanKnudson]

Thanks for your input, guys! It's really helpful! I'm also happy to hear from anyone else who wants to weigh in -- can't have too much help!

jgmann and kiwisholland -- I'll go ahead and used half and half spring and distilled water for top-up (I already have plenty of distilled sitting around, since I used it in brewing).

sour_grapes -- I will try a longer bulk aging at a warm(ish) temperature instead of degassing. As I mentioned, I have nothing but time, so I can wait as long as needed before bottling. (I can always tell the MIL that it's just a long process. She'll be fine with that since fancy wines are so often marketed by their vintage). That said, does it make sense to do a conservative manual degassing -- like, not going crazy, but getting some of the gas out of solution -- and then aging it to complete the process? As I mentioned, the idea of doing this to beer absolutely mortifies me, so while I trust that winemakers know their craft a far sight better than I do, it still makes me nervous.

And it seems like everyone agrees -- no sorbate! Okay, I can do that! What the heck is it even for if you don't use it?

Last thing: sour_grapes, you mentioned changing up the yeast strain. This kit came with Lalvin EC-1118 "Sparkling Wines." Is there a better choice for this Merlot? I have no aversion to purchasing a different yeast, dry or liquid, as long as it is in service of the wine. I am fairly knowledgeable about yeast biology and handling, but I don't know much about the practical aspects of wine strains -- like what they contribute to flavor!

Again, thank you guys for such thoughtful and helpful responses. I think that with a bit of guidance from you more experienced winemakers, this is going to be a really fun project! Who knows, maybe I'll catch the bug and become a winemaker too!

EDIT: One final final thing. The kit instructions specifically say "Do not rehydrate the yeast." So if I end up going with the dry yeast included in the kit, that's what they want me to do. Years of brewing experience (and a pretty thorough layman's understanding of yeast) tell me that this is a dumb idea. Dry brewer's yeast viability decreases by about 50% when it is not rehydrated prior to pitching, and I see no reason that this would not be true for wine yeast too (it's still Saccharomyces cerevisiae). Why does my kit recommend this???

 

[richmke]

I have nothing but time, and I want to get this right.

3. Are the various additives all necessary? I know they are there for a reason, but I don't fully understand what they all do. (Again, beer brewer here...I only use metabisulfate to remove chloramines from my municipal water).

If you have time, skip the bentonite, and the kieselsol/chitosan. With time, the wine will clear on its own. Some say the bentonite strips stuff from the wine. IMHO, if you don't need it, don't use it.

Like others have said, skip the sorbate.

4. I guess there is top-up water used. My instinct is to use store-bought distilled water for this. Is there any reason to go a different route? I know exactly zero about mineral profiles in wine, kit or otherwise, but this is a big deal in beer and I would assume it would be when it comes to wine, too.

It is the same for wine as it is for beer, for the same reason - taste. However, if tap water tastes fine, then use it. Yeast benefits from the nutrients, so spring water is preferred over distilled water.

5. I know that the recommended fermentation temperatures (low to mid 70s, if I recall correctly) ... but is it really best to *start* fermentation at that temperature? Does it not make more sense to start a bit lower (maybe mid to upper 60s) and ramp up after the growth phase is mostly complete?

If you use the sprinkle method to pitch the yeast, it is very important to pitch around 72-75 degrees. The temp is important for activating the yeast. The temp is also important to build up a healthy colony quickly. You want the good yeast to take hold before bad stuff have a chance. The lower the temp, the longer it takes to build the colony.

The kit instructions specifically say "Do not rehydrate the yeast." ... Why does my kit recommend this???

Because the instructions are for the a new kit maker. The process minimizes risk of kit failure (expensive for the manufacturer who has to replace the kit). If you tell the person to get to 72-75 degrees on 6 gallons of grape juice, they are not going to be off by much, and that difference will not be material.

However, if you tell them to heat 1/4 cup of water to 104 degrees; mix, but not too much, the yeast into the water; and wait 15, but no more than 30 minutes - a lot can go wrong. Too hot, stir too much, get distracted by a phone call and wait too long - then you may have killed the yeast, the kit will fail, the consumer will complain, and the manufacturer will replace the kit. All because of user failure, not the kit.

6. Any other "best practices" that I should absolutely be aware of going into this kit? (Obviously sanitation, which I have on lock).

Not "best practices", but is what I do:

1) Skip the Bentonite.
2) Reconstitute the juice, per instructions. No oak or other stuff yet.
3) Remove 2 gallons back to the bag, and store it in the fridge (this minimizes the risk of a volcano later on). If you do not have a pail for wine (wine pail is 7.5+ gallons, and a beer pail - 6.5+ gallons), then you may want to remove even more.
4) Add the oak and other stuff (tablespoon of wine tannin is good - optional).
5) Rehydrate the yeast per the yeast package instructions - since you have done beer, I can assume you can do this step correctly.
6) pitch the yeast
7) Some people cover the pail with a cloth. I just loosely put the lid on. Do not put it under airlock.
8) Stir two-three times a day, especially if you have grape skins in the kit. Release the CO2, and sink the skins (keep them wet).
9) After 4 days when the fermentation is slowing down, and the risk of a blowoff has subsided, add 1 gallon per day of the reserved juice. If you want to be really correct, add back 1 pint at a time, and wait 20 minutes between additions, repeat until the 1 gallon has been added. This minimizes temp shock to the yeast (the reserved juice has been in the fridge). If you are using a beer pail, slow down your additions as you get near the top.

Resume the kit instructions (airlock, etc.) when you are ready to rack to the carboy. At this point:

10) Skip the clarifying step (kieselsol/chitosan)
11) Skip the degass.
12) Skip the sorbate.
13) When you get to the bottling time (per the instructions), rack every 3 months, and add 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulfate while you are doing it.
14) Bottle at the 9 month - 1 year mark.
15) Use a high quality #9 size corks. You will need a floor corker for #9 corks. #8 corks will leak within a year.

 

[ceeaton]

Again, thank you guys for such thoughtful and helpful responses. I think that with a bit of guidance from you more experienced winemakers, this is going to be a really fun project! Who knows, maybe I'll catch the bug and become a winemaker too!

EDIT: One final final thing. The kit instructions specifically say "Do not rehydrate the yeast." So if I end up going with the dry yeast included in the kit, that's what they want me to do. Years of brewing experience (and a pretty thorough layman's understanding of yeast) tell me that this is a dumb idea. Dry brewer's yeast viability decreases by about 50% when it is not rehydrated prior to pitching, and I see no reason that this would not be true for wine yeast too (it's still Saccharomyces cerevisiae). Why does my kit recommend this???

I agree with not sprinkling the yeast into the must. You have a beer making background (my first batch was in 1990) and can handle the yeast with no problem. I'd add that I do use Go-Ferm when I rehydrate my yeast and follow the Lallamand directions for doing so (heat water etc). Go to either the Lallamand or Scotts or MoreWinemaking websites for more info on Go Ferm. The idea is to give the yeast the compounds it needs to help it stay healthy in a high alcohol environment later in the fermentation process.

With your background you will be overly cautions, because beer doesn't have the high alcohol or low pH protection that wine does against all kinds of nasties. As they have said, keep the dirty diapers out of the mix and you'll be fine. That said I have my bucket lid snapped down and airlock attached. Have only done one ferment "open air" and it was in a small Brutte trash can. Have never had a stuck fermentation (except one that stopped at 1.000 because I had it too cold. Warmed it up and added EC-1118 and it finished to .992).

Keep up your beer brewing. It's easy to make wine, hard to do a 6 hour full grain mash. I haven't brewed since this Spring. Hoping to do so Monday since we have an unexpected day off (no electric at our plant).

BTW, welcome to WMT!

 

[JordanKnudson]

It is the same for wine as it is for beer, for the same reason - taste. However, if tap water tastes fine, then use it. Yeast benefits from the nutrients, so spring water is preferred over distilled water.
...
Not "best practices", but is what I do:

1) Skip the Bentonite.
2) Reconstitute the juice, per instructions. No oak or other stuff yet.
3) Remove 2 gallons back to the bag, and store it in the fridge (this minimizes the risk of a volcano later on). If you do not have a pail for wine (wine pail is 7.5+ gallons, and a beer pail - 6.5+ gallons), then you may want to remove even more.
4) Add the oak and other stuff (tablespoon of wine tannin is good - optional).
5) Rehydrate the yeast per the yeast package instructions - since you have done beer, I can assume you can do this step correctly.
6) pitch the yeast
7) Some people cover the pail with a cloth. I just loosely put the lid on. Do not put it under airlock.
8) Stir two-three times a day, especially if you have grape skins in the kit. Release the CO2, and sink the skins (keep them wet).
9) After 4 days when the fermentation is slowing down, and the risk of a blowoff has subsided, add 1 gallon per day of the reserved juice. If you want to be really correct, add back 1 pint at a time, and wait 20 minutes between additions, repeat until the 1 gallon has been added. This minimizes temp shock to the yeast (the reserved juice has been in the fridge). If you are using a beer pail, slow down your additions as you get near the top.

Resume the kit instructions (airlock, etc.) when you are ready to rack to the carboy. At this point:

10) Skip the clarifying step (kieselsol/chitosan)
11) Skip the degass.
12) Skip the sorbate.
13) When you get to the bottling time (per the instructions), rack every 3 months, and add 1/4 tsp potassium metabisulfate while you are doing it.
14) Bottle at the 9 month - 1 year mark.
15) Use a high quality #9 size corks. You will need a floor corker for #9 corks. #8 corks will leak within a year.

Awesomely thorough! Thank you. Those are very useful tips. Does everyone else agree that, given the method and timeframe above, I can forego degassing and sorbate?

I will go ahead and use spring water, since you have all seemed to prefer it. In beer it is about more than just flavor -- it is about pH control and predictability, mash calcium content, sulfate-to-chloride balance, etc etc... However, when people do extract kits, it is best to used distilled water, since all of those aforementioned concerns are taken care of before the kit reaches the consumer. So I was thinking, "Beer kit, wine kit...I should use distilled water." However, I will take your advice and go with spring water.

Also, just so I can be sure I understand, the reason that you are reserving a portion of the juice (must? I'm trying to get the terms down ) is to avoid a blowoff, correct? I am planning to pick up a wine pail this weekend, because you are correct, I only have 6.5 gallon fermentors for brewing.

I do have a floor corker already, though! One of those champagne corkers that can also do Belgian beer bottles. So thank god I won't have to drop that much coin again for this!

 

[richmke]

when people do extract kits, it is best to used distilled water, since all of those aforementioned concerns are taken care of before the kit reaches the consumer.

Probably true for wine kits too. But, the kits are designed for tap water (again, minimize user error). As long as the water is good to drink, the extra minerals won't hurt the yeast, and could possibly help. pH and those levels won't be much different.

Also, just so I can be sure I understand, the reason that you are reserving a portion of the juice (must? I'm trying to get the terms down ) is to avoid a blowoff, correct?

Correct. You can take your chances and skip the step. Don't say I didn't warn you. Doubly warned if the kit has skins, as the skins add more volume and reduce the headspace.

I do have a floor corker already, though! One of those champagne corkers that can also do Belgian beer bottles.

Make sure it can handle regular corks. Champagne corks are different.

 

[sour_grapes]

That said, does it make sense to do a conservative manual degassing -- like, not going crazy, but getting some of the gas out of solution -- and then aging it to complete the process?

Sure, that approach sounds quite reasonable to me.

And it seems like everyone agrees -- no sorbate! Okay, I can do that! What the heck is it even for if you don't use it?

If you are backsweetening a wine, you will need it. If not, the kit manufacturers put it in the kit for the case of someone who does not manage to ferment their wine to dry, but bottles it anyway.

Last thing: sour_grapes, you mentioned changing up the yeast strain. This kit came with Lalvin EC-1118 "Sparkling Wines." Is there a better choice for this Merlot? I have no aversion to purchasing a different yeast, dry or liquid, as long as it is in service of the wine. I am fairly knowledgeable about yeast biology and handling, but I don't know much about the practical aspects of wine strains -- like what they contribute to flavor!

EC-1118 is considered a foolproof workhorse that has overall good fermentation characteristics (wide temperature range, good kinetics, high alcohol tolerance...). It fulfills the "idiotproof" requirement that a kitmaker needs. However, it is considered to be "neutral" in flavors -- not enhancing the wine's flavors at all. There are better choices. Take a look-see here:
http://morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wyeastpair.pdf

EDIT: One final final thing. The kit instructions specifically say "Do not rehydrate the yeast." So if I end up going with the dry yeast included in the kit, that's what they want me to do. Years of brewing experience (and a pretty thorough layman's understanding of yeast) tell me that this is a dumb idea. Dry brewer's yeast viability decreases by about 50% when it is not rehydrated prior to pitching, and I see no reason that this would not be true for wine yeast too (it's still Saccharomyces cerevisiae). Why does my kit recommend this???

I do agree with what RichMKE has written on this topic. That having been said, I myself have stopped rehyrdrating, and just sprinkle. The yeast seem to figure it out!

 

[Brian55]

Awesomely thorough! Does everyone else agree that, given the method and timeframe above, I can forego degassing and sorbate?

Yes, most of us skip the sorbate, and degas with time and/or vacuum.

 

[JordanKnudson]

You guys have been an awesome, unbelievable help! If you care to throw any other tips and tricks my way, I'd be happy to hear them. Otherwise, I'll let you know when the wine is off and fermenting! (Hopefully I'll be able to get it started no later than next weekend!) Thank you!!!