Elusive Wine kit finish.. no bite!

[Geronimo]

I've made about 40 kits now and tried a lot of treatments to improve the wines finish, including a whole array of oaks and tannins. Still, I can't seem to find the magic ingredient to add a bit of a bite (astringency) to my wine. I'm pretty sure the kit makers purposely keep the finish pretty flat to make the kits "6-8 weeks" drinkable.

I'm really happy with the body, aroma, mouth feel and flavor of many kits I've tried, if only they had a better finish. This is the one place my wines can't compare to commercial bottles.

 

[cintipam]

Please understand this is from one who loves acid foods. Wouldn't acid be the missing ingredient to give some "bite" to your wine. Tannin can be perceived as a similar effect for some folks, but since you are already adding tannin I think acid would be what you should try. Bench tests of course. Acid blend is pretty cheap, so it should be easy to benchtest this to see if it gives your wine what you think it is lacking. Be careful tho, specifically with absorbic acid. Too much can remove a layer of skin from inside your mouth. and of course it would be important to have a PH tester so you don't make your PH too low for long term storage. Of course they say the lower PH the less sulfite is needed, but there is always a downside to too much anything in our wines.

Pam in cinti

 

[cintipam]

BTW I've had many of my wines go from no obvious finish to a very nice one just by the aging process. Acid will give you some bite, but I think only time will develop a nice finish.

Gotta admit I also love a nice finish in a wine.

Pam in cinti

 

[cocroach]

I recently bought a bottle of RJ Spagnols liquid grape tannin ($3.99) that added to a test glass of a kit that I had made. It was just a few drops, but it gave way more of the astringency that typically like in wine that I find lacks with the kit wines.

I'm not sure yet how this addition of this affects the wine over time, but I plan to try it in a test gallon of the RJS Nero D'Avola I have clearing right now.

I too have tried many additions to kits (oak, finishing tannin, yeast strains), but have yet to find that "thing" that makes it compare to a good commercial bottle.

 

[Geronimo]

BTW I've had many of my wines go from no obvious finish to a very nice one just by the aging process. Acid will give you some bite, but I think only time will develop a nice finish.

Gotta admit I also love a nice finish in a wine.

Pam in cinti

Thanks Pam, but I've had a couple kits that exhibit that excellent finish right out of primary. I'm not doubting you, I'm sure aging will improve the wines to some degree.

My aging process is mostly in glass, so I don't know if it's going to make a huge difference for me. Maybe the oak barrels?

 

[Geronimo]

I recently bought a bottle of RJ Spagnols liquid grape tannin ($3.99) that added to a test glass of a kit that I had made. It was just a few drops, but it gave way more of the astringency that typically like in wine that I find lacks with the kit wines.

I'm not sure yet how this addition of this affects the wine over time, but I plan to try it in a test gallon of the RJS Nero D'Avola I have clearing right now.

I too have tried many additions to kits (oak, finishing tannin, yeast strains), but have yet to find that "thing" that makes it compare to a good commercial bottle.

Where on earth did you find it? I just did a search (and I've tried before, too) but I always come up empty.

 

[cocroach]

Where on earth did you find it? I just did a search (and I've tried before, too) but I always come up empty.

The only place that I've been able to find it is through this one retailer in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Not sure if they do international shipping. I've found the service to be good here, so it might be worth checking if you can't find it elsewhere.

http://grapestoglass.com/shop/tannin/liquid-grape-tannin/

 

[Boatboy24]

I'm not sure how old your wines are, but having done 40, I assume you have at least a few with a year or more on them. I've only been at this a little over two years, but the high end kits I have that are 18 months old or more are significantly better than those that are just a year old. I also think barrel aging has a huge impact. If you're already using tannins like Tancor grand Cru, your next step may be added acid or barrel aging. I'd go with barrel aging first, even though it's a little more expensive.

 

[Geronimo]

My wife is inclined to disagree that we've made 40... she says it's more like 60. I have many wines that are approaching 3 years. My general observations are different than those I've heard from others.

1. 95% of the benefit of aging happens in the first year to 18 months.
2. Tancor Grand Cru (or other tannins) used on a premium kit will not significantly change the wine over time. It can make a bigger difference in low end kits.
3. Modifying the oak makes the biggest impact in the finished product.

I have 3 sets of pairs of kits (one control and one modified). They are

RJS RQ Chilean Trek
CC Showcase Red Mountain Cab Sav
CC Showcase Barberra

All of them are over 2 years and the differences are so slight. None of them have the finish I'm after.

 

[ibglowin]

Wow, not my experience with Tancor. The best wines (high end kit) I ever made I used a good amount of Tancor in and I thought that the missing ingredient was just that, some extra Tannin.

The Vadai also helps to really expose the fruit and bring out the bouquet of a Kit wine. No sealed up glass carboy will ever come close to the controlled micro oxidation and concentration by evaporations effect of a barrel.

Of all the red kit wines I have ever made I have like 3-4 that actually tasted like commercial quality wine. White wines, almost all of them taste like a commercial quality wine (all high end ultra premium of course) Much easier to make a commercial quality white as their is really not all that much difference between a kit and fresh grapes, crush, press, ferment vs crush, press, remove some H2O, package, ferment.

The difference in fermenting 23L of juice with a 2KG grape pack vs wine made from fresh grapes, 23L of juice and more like 20KG of skins should be obvious when it comes to the final taste comparison.

 

[cocroach]

Wow, not my experience with Tancor. The best wines (high end kit) I ever made I used a good amount of Tancor in and I thought that the missing ingredient was just that, some extra Tannin.

The Vadai also helps to really expose the fruit and bring out the bouquet of a Kit wine. No sealed up glass carboy will ever come close to the controlled micro oxidation and concentration by evaporations effect of a barrel.

Of all the red kit wines I have ever made I have like 3-4 that actually tasted like commercial quality wine. White wines, almost all of them taste like a commercial quality wine (all high end ultra premium of course) Much easier to make a commercial quality white as their is really not all that much difference between a kit and fresh grapes, crush, press, ferment vs crush, press, remove some H2O, package, ferment.

The difference in fermenting 23L of juice with a 2KG grape pack vs wine made from fresh grapes, 23L of juice and more like 20KG of skins should be obvious when it comes to the final taste comparison.

Mike, I tend to agree with Jim. With the exception of Port kits, I've yet to find a red wine kit that I was really impressed with, and I have stuck to mostly high-end. (Hoping the Meglioli Barolo in two years will change that). I do agree the biggest effect I had was the addition of Tannin Riche Extra that I added to medium level kit.

I've yet to try barrel aging, so I might have to give that a go, since I've heard so many positives . I'm curious to know how much tannin you added of the Tan'cor Grand Cru (maybe I'm not adding enough) and which kits were the ones you most liked?

Great post, by the way!

 

[ibglowin]

I used 3.5-4.5 gm (per 23L) depending on the varietal of Tancor Grand Cru. Have absolutely loved all of the LR offers from Cellar Craft (now Vineco). The quality of the juice in the LR's is definitely a cut (or two) above the normal stock kit juice material.

Hands down best kit available year round is the CC Showcase Yakima Valley Cab-Merlot. Just won a Gold medal with that kit and have made it multiple times now. Always awesome.

The Vadai helps soooo much with kit wines. When they concentrate the juice down by removing the H2O nothing outside of the barrel seemed to really bring back the full aroma and bouquet like (3-6 months) in the barrel did.

 

[tonyt]

Speaking only to a wine’s “finish”, with 60 or so kits under my belt (literally) I have experienced a paticulairly nice “finish” with the following kits:


Petite Verdot WE limited 2010 – This was one of the benchmarks in kit wines. This kit won tons of amature awards a few year back. Note that the non LE available today is vastly inferior.

TORO (Tempranillo Grenache) RJS RQ – Hands down one of the most structured wines I have made. Very impressive “finish”.

Yakima Syrah w/grape pack, CC Showcase – With added TanCor GrandCru tannin and barrel time this kit developed a nice “finish” but not exceedingly long finish.

Red Mt. Trio (Cab, Syrah, Merlot) CC, LE – This earned me my first gold medal recently. It’s still young but developing incredibly well. It’s “aroma” which I believe is more allusive in kits than “finish” is fantastic and the finish is very pleasant.

WE Eclipse Cabernet Sauvignon – This is only a year old for me but every indication points to an outstanding accomplishment of a kit. Aroma, fruit, spice, body AND finish.


That’s not to say that the other kits weren’t noteworthy some were even more enjoyable than the ones listed above. Needless to say “balance” is what we are really after.

 

[Geronimo]

Wow, not my experience with Tancor. The best wines (high end kit) I ever made I used a good amount of Tancor in and I thought that the missing ingredient was just that, some extra Tannin.

Just to be clear, I think TanCor Grand Cru is one of the best finishing tannins around, and I can tell the difference whenever I add it. However, over time, it seems to disappear (or reduce a LOT). One theory is that a well balanced wine won't accept too much tannin, and over time the tannins will polymerize until the effect is so soft, they barely make any difference. Finally the chains get so large they drop out of suspension. Since we're adding modest dosages, the differences between a treated batch and a untreated batch aren't great to start with.

 

[cocroach]

Just to be clear, I think TanCor Grand Cru is one of the best finishing tannins around, and I can tell the difference whenever I add it. However, over time, it seems to disappear (or reduce a LOT). One theory is that a well balanced wine won't accept too much tannin, and over time the tannins will polymerize until the effect is so soft, they barely make any difference. Finally the chains get so large they drop out of suspension. Since we're adding modest dosages, the differences between a treated batch and a untreated batch aren't great to start with.

Mike/Tony, great to hear what kits you've had success with. I have not tried any of those mentioned.

Jim, I've only used finishing tannins myself. Have you tried cellaring tannins? I wonder if you'd get different result?