Other Extended Maceration Eclipse Lodi 11 Cab

[ceeaton]

If you go without the mesh bag. How do you "press" the skins when you are done if you don't actually have a press?

The best I can do now that I know of it squeeze the bag once I'm ready to discard it.

You can rack it into a strainer bag and squeeze it, or into a funnel that has a mesh screen, then press it with a spoon or your clean hands. You don't want to overly squeeze it as you can extract some compounds that put a white protein scumb at the top of your carboy that everyone freaks out about (assuming the skins are from a kit supplied skin bag).

 

[Johnd]

Thanks John, that's very useful. I think most of the Napa wine makers graduated from UC Davis so that's a pretty definitive source to me. Kmeta at week three or so will be just fine. Thanks for finding that.

You're welcome. If you go to the UC Davis website, you can see the lessons on line. I find it an invaluable source and read through the lessons every so often.

Hope your project turns out great, getting more body into the kits is definitely a benefit, imho.

 

[jburtner]

Seems reasonable that higher ABV and kmeta would protect it. Too bad that it appears to require a large mouth container to make it manageable. I wonder if you could separate into standard carboy after AF like usual - kmeta everything - then pack the skins into a second smaller container with "just enough" wine to cover and seal / airlock.... Let it sit for the 2-3mos, press, and blend back into the main carboy... Sorta like a concentrated extract...

Also noted that I believe he mentioned oak in the primary (as is often the case) - which after 9 weeks would have a fairly significant profile impact that would not be in the control example, ie; his tasting notes are nine weeks of oak + skins - not just skins - where the control had one week of oak+skins....

Food for thought!
Cheers,
jb

 

[AZMDTed]

jb, not a bad thought. I wonder though if there's a saturation point where the smaller container with the skins would stop extracting. I have no idea. Worth an experiment though.

Looking at his videos again, he kept the wine skins in the control batch apparently for three weeks. If you note he says he's been fermenting for a few weeks, and the skins are still in there when he racks off. He then says that he's going to keep the other one on the skins for six more weeks. The next video calls it nine weeks altogether, so it sounds like had extended time on the control one too, but I don't know what that brands instructions say.

As far as the oak, I'm assuming he's talking about oak dust. The Amarone I made with WE had me add oak dust, so I imagine he had that in both. Not sure if that kit has oak beans for later but he doesn't mention it.

 

[tjgaul]

I believe I have read elsewhere (possibly "From Vines to Wine") that for an extended maceration you could continue punchdowns throughout the maceration, albeit less frequently after week 4 or 5, and control oxygen exposure by topping off your fermentation vessel with CO2 from a can. Seems like this would solve the exposure issue, but might be difficult in practice. Anyone have any experience with this technique?

I have a CC Showcase Amarone kit on the shelf I was planning to start in a week or so and I am seriously considering an extended maceration.

 

[AZMDTed]

My experiment officially kicked off last night. I got in the Eclipse Lodi Ranch 11 Cabernet Sauvignon kit and the 7 gallon FerMonster. First impressions, I really like the Fermonster. Something about having a thin, clear plastic vessel that gives me a great view of the wine is appealing to me.

I mixed up the bentonite, but because of a high temp restriction on the Fermonster I mixed the bentonite with water in a pot, then added the rest of the gallon of water to the pot to cool it down. I put that in the carboy, added my juice and topped up to 6 gallons, which is just under 23 liters. The photo shows the line where the 6 gallons comes to on the carboy. Next I added 60 grams of French Oak Chips that came with the kit and stirred it under. I then added the Grape skin bag directly to the juice. Taking advice from others I first soaked the skin bag in warm water and that helped release the skins quite a bit. Next I used another cup or so of water to rinse out the skin bag and added that to the carboy. At this point I also added a cup of Currants. Everything mixed in or sank.

The next picture shows the juice line after all additions. It’s just encroaching on the shoulders of the carboy. I checked the temp of the juice and it was 70 degrees, air temp 69 degrees. The corrected initial SG was 1.096, which remained the same after two hours. I think by dumping the skin kit directly in the must most of the sugar transfers quickly. The Currants will release sugar over time so the actual SG is a bit higher, but not enough to wait around for. After two hours I pitched BM 4X4 yeast and covered the top with a towel.

As of this morning the yeast has not started its thing yet. The must is a little cooler than WE recommends but well within the parameters of the yeast. In my experience BM 4X4 is a slow starter, then foams heavy on day 2-3 and then just sizzles after that. I’m glad this is a low foamer because I’m worried about space for the foam to go. I’ve had other yeast that I’m sure would push to or out of the remaining space you see here. After the heavy foaming is done and I’m confident that we’re not going to overflow I’ll switch to an airlock. I’m still not sure how Tim fermented his in a 6.5 gallon Big Mouth Bubbler without a foaming issue. In one of the photos I included a yardstick for anyone interested in the dimensions of this thing. I’ve read that for extended maceration you need a width to height ratio of at least .6 for efficient skins contact. Be my measurement the height of my juice is 16” and the width is 10”, putting my ratio just a hair over .6.

I will add a tablespoon of Tannin Rouge Soft when I do my first punch down. BTW, I was finally able to read Tim’s blog about his experiment. He did put the grape skins in the bag instead of loose, and added loose raisins. That’s about it for now.

 

[AZMDTed]

After 24 hours the yeast have added new recruits and are preparing for the assault.

 

[AZMDTed]

36 hours: Party time!

So now is the time to add a tablespoon of FT Tannin Soft and give it a stir.......

 

[AZMDTed]

After a very gentle stir, this is what I got.

Fortunately, it did not overflow, but it was within moments of doing so when the active foaming slowed and the bigger bubbles started bursting and maintaining the level. I'm not surprised by this at all as this is the time when I get the most foam from many of my kits. This evenings stir will probably produce the same result and then starting tomorrow I expect it to be less of a problem.

I still remain skeptical about Tim's ferment in a smaller wide mouth carboy. His liquid level seems low to me as though he didn't make a full six gallons, or perhaps he had an overflow and lost some. I don't know, just my speculation. I also wonder what would have happened if I had the grape skins in the mesh bag. Would the bag have floated up first and plugged the top? If so, would it have made an effective, but permeable, barrier so the gas could escape but hold the bubbles and juice in? Or would it have created sufficient pressure till it blew out? We'll see how easy the racking goes on this before I decide if the next kit will get a bag or not.

BTW, I wrapped a beach towel around the carboy to help keep the heat in as it actively ferments. The room is down to about 67 degrees.

 

[AZMDTed]

I replaced the blanket around the carboy with a double layer of reflective insulation. I like the look a lot better, and I'm sure it's a better insulator.

 

[AZMDTed]

48 hours

Foaming as expected. Cap on top. A little anxious about breaking up the cap given the foaming this morning.

 

[AZMDTed]

After very very gentle pushing of the cap, here it is. Didn't foam over, but it laughed at me as it came up, before it settled down

 

[AZMDTed]

A note on the fermonster. The red lid comes with the bottle either pre-drilled for a bung or solid, your choice. I ordered one with a bung. It comes with an o ring that you set into a groove around the inside of the cap and that's how you get an air tight seal. Having decided that I also want a solid cap I ordered one from labelpeelers. It came in today. They sent me the wrong one, so I called. They're going to replace it but I mentioned that the cap they sent didn't come with the o ring and not to forget it on the replacement. They said caps sold separately don't come with an o ring. He thinks your supposed to pry it out of the other lid and reapply depending upon which lid you use. That's insane. O rings won't last long digging them out of place. Looks like I need to try to find a thin 4 inch o ring somewhere. Not a good business practice.

 

[AZMDTed]

Be nice if you could identify someone on this forum who has made the Lodi Ranch kit this Fall that you could swap a few bottles with when completed, that way you'd have a "standard" of sorts to compare it to. Maybe you'd even get lucky and find someone who is full of flowery descriptions and kill two birds with one stone.

Craig, I like your wine descriptions. East Berlin is only 80 minutes from me so maybe we could meet sometime when this has cleared and you can give it a try and post your impressions.

 

[ceeaton]

Craig, I like your wine descriptions. East Berlin is only 80 minutes from me so maybe we could meet sometime when this has cleared and you can give it a try and post your impressions.

It's only 40 minutes if we both drive toward each other! I've got a few batches in the works now (only 13), but would love to try your "experiment", I'm really intrigued by it. I'm always looking for tasters to give me honest opinions of my wines. Had one of my tasters comment at work today, after she tried an early carboy tipping of this Springs' Pinot Grigio, say it had a smokey character to it. I'm about to tip the carboy again into my glass and see what she's talking about, since I never use oak in a PG.

But she is an honest one. I gave her a red raspberry wine which I barely back sweetened and she admitted, after hemming and hawing around the subject, that she didn't care for the wine. At that point I knew she was a keeper as far as a taster goes. She is not in the least worried that her comments will stop the flow of free bottles of wine.

PS. that is definitely pushing the limits of that carboy! Where did you order it from?

 

[AZMDTed]

It's only 40 minutes if we both drive toward each other! I've got a few batches in the works now (only 13), but would love to try your "experiment", I'm really intrigued by it. I'm always looking for tasters to give me honest opinions of my wines. Had one of my tasters comment at work today, after she tried an early carboy tipping of this Springs' Pinot Grigio, say it had a smokey character to it. I'm about to tip the carboy again into my glass and see what she's talking about, since I never use oak in a PG.

But she is an honest one. I gave her a red raspberry wine which I barely back sweetened and she admitted, after hemming and hawing around the subject, that she didn't care for the wine. At that point I knew she was a keeper as far as a taster goes. She is not in the least worried that her comments will stop the flow of free bottles of wine.

PS. that is definitely pushing the limits of that carboy! Where did you order it from?

Sounds good. Let's line something up for after Christmas. I got the fermonster at labelpeelers. It's 7 gallons so I'm assuming it's bigger than the 6.5 gallon big mouth that Tim used. It's definitely at the edge of acceptability for fermenting kits with grape packs.

 

[ceeaton]

Sounds good. Let's line something up for after Christmas. I got the fermonster at labelpeelers. It's 7 gallons so I'm assuming it's bigger than the 6.5 gallon big mouth that Tim used. It's definitely at the edge of acceptability for fermenting kits with grape packs.

You could always start the ferment in a 7.9 gallon bucket and rack over with the skins to the wide mouth to finish it off after the heavy duty action subsides. Thanks for the info, we'll revisit the wine swap after Christmas, I should have a few more batches bottled by then (just want to do some November cold stabilizing).

 

[AZMDTed]

Yep, that's what I was thinking. The only other option is to make this as a five gallon kit, but I think that would screw up the chemistry pretty good. Who knows, maybe worth another experiment.

 

[Boatboy24]

After very very gentle pushing of the cap, here it is. Didn't foam over, but it laughed at me as it came up, before it settled down

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nqcL0mjMjw[/ame]

 

[AZMDTed]

Well, it overflowed a bit last night. Not too much. It might have been because of the insulation I put on it. The temp was 79 so maybe the warmth really got things going. No harm though. Warmth is good for red fermentation.

One benefit though is that I decided to really look at the skins in the skin pack. They are pretty well chopped up which I assume is done to enchance maximum extraction during a normal primary. I'm not sure 9 weeks extended time is needed with them so well chopped, but I will do about six to seven and see what they look like then.

I think the next time I would do four days or so in a bucket, with skins in a bag, and then transfer them all to a wide mouth for the rest of the time.