Extremely low TA in Chardonnay

[pditt13]

I picked up my pail of California Chardonnay yesterday from piwine. Once it warmed up i tested it and i was shocked that the TA was .15. I even tested it twice. Ph was 3.78, a little high. (Brix 21). I added 31g of Tataric Acid, which was all i had until I pick more up today, but by my calculation i need to add 2 - 56g packs. REALLY? Has anyone ever had to add that much tartaric acid? Won't it lower my ph too much? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. (the 31g I added took it to .277)

Thanks,
Patti

 

[Xlev]

I picked up my pail of California Chardonnay yesterday from piwine. Once it warmed up i tested it and i was shocked that the TA was .15. I even tested it twice. Ph was 3.78, a little high. (Brix 21). I added 31g of Tataric Acid, which was all i had until I pick more up today, but by my calculation i need to add 2 - 56g packs. REALLY? Has anyone ever had to add that much tartaric acid? Won't it lower my ph too much? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. (the 31g I added took it to .277)

Thanks,
Patti

Can I ask how you measured TA?

 

[ibglowin]

pH for a good Chardonnay should be down in the 3.3 range. Go slow. Add 1/2 you calculate you may need. And always taste along the way.

 

[pditt13]

Can I ask how you measured TA?

10ml wine and sodium hydroxide .1N, and ph meter to 8.2 (used 2ml x .1 x 75/10). Put formula to confirm i calculated correctly. Did the test twice to be sure.

 

[pditt13]

pH for a good Chardonnay should be down in the 3.3 range. Go slow. Add 1/2 you calculate you may need. And always taste along the way.

Will do. Still something does not seem right. When i added the 31g that I had at home it took the TA from .15 to .277 which seems right. BUT it took my ph from 3.78 to 3.14. Correct me if i am wrong but shouldn't the TA go up approximately the same as ph goes down when adding tartaric acid. My TA went up .127 but ph went down .64. Afraid to add any more at all even though it does not taste acidic at all.

Is my thought wrong? Maybe pitch the yeast and check after fermentation?

 

[ibglowin]

Will do. Still something does not seem right. When i added the 31g that I had at home it took the TA from .15 to .277 which seems right. BUT it took my ph from 3.78 to 3.14. Correct me if i am wrong but shouldn't the TA go up approximately the same as ph goes down when adding tartaric acid. My TA went up .127 but ph went down .64. Afraid to add any more at all even though it does not taste acidic at all.

Is my thought wrong? Maybe pitch the yeast and check after fermentation?

I don't believe its a linear function (pH vs TA) so I would stop for sure and let things settle to see if pH goes up/down/or stays the same. Taste?

 

[pditt13]

2023 L'uva Bella Fall Juice Specifications: Chardonnay TA: 5.2 - 5.6, Brix: 20.7 - 21.5 Ph: 3.40 - 3.43

This is what i got from the piwine site. Definitely not what I got when testing. And i recalibrate my ph meter everytime I use it.

 

[ibglowin]

Its possible it could be your pH meter. Stranger things have happened. Is it a $25 meter or a $125 meter? Probe tip could be dirty and need cleaning perhaps.

 

[winemaker81]

@ibglowin is right, TA and pH do not necessarily correspond.

Always add less than you calculate. It's far easier to add more than it is to take some out.

When you get an odd reading, high or low, recalibrate the meter, just in case.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

Do you degas samples when you test them? This can be as simple as shaking the sample tube vigorously and venting it a few times to get rid of CO2. mainly an issue after fermentation, but if your juice has started fermenting already it might have some effect.

And no, pH and TA don't move in lockstep... amount of acid (and what kind) and potassium can impact buffering capacity, which essentially determines how much pH moves for a given acid addition.

 

[pditt13]

Its possible it could be your pH meter. Stranger things have happened. Is it a $25 meter or a $125 meter? Probe tip could be dirty and need cleaning perhaps.

It is $125 meter from Milwaukee Instr and i have not cleaned it for awhile. Definitely my next step before i do anything.

 

[pditt13]

Do you degas samples when you test them? This can be as simple as shaking the sample tube vigorously and venting it a few times to get rid of CO2. mainly an issue after fermentation, but if your juice has started fermenting already it might have some effect.

And no, pH and TA don't move in lockstep... amount of acid (and what kind) and potassium can impact buffering capacity, which essentially determines how much pH moves for a given acid addition.

No, I have not degassed samples. I can do that before my next test and after i clean the electrode.

Thanks everyone for all your input. It is greatly appreciated.

 

[winechef]

Pitch your yeast, dont add more acid.

 

[pditt13]

tested one last time after cleaned electrode. Ph was 3.1, and TA (using ph meter method) was 3.3. Pitched yeast.

Again, thanks all for all the help.

 

[Xlev]

Im just wondering if its something wrong with either the pH meter or the NaOH solution. How old is the NaOH solution.You can try to normalize the NaOH solution to see if it really is 0.1N.

Here are my notes if it helps:

TA titration

0.1N solution of NaOH
Dissolve 0.4g of NaOH in 100mL of water to make a 0.1N solution. The solution is good to approximately 6 months. You then need to standardize the solution to get the exact molarity of the solution. To do that you can use potassium hydrogen phthalate (KHP) powder which you find in the 4.01 buffers. Make a 0.05N solution by dissolving 1,02g of KHP in a total volume of 100ml.To standardize the NaOH solution titrate 10mL sample of 0.05N KHP to pH of 8.2. To determine the actual molarity of your NaOH solution follow the following formula

Actual NaOH = (ml KPH x 0.05 KHP) / (ml NaOH)

The titration goes slowly at first until it reaches the pH of about 7, after that a little drop can cause it to overshoot the 8.2 pH target. In my first experiment the results were the following.

= 0.108N

I would make sure that you really do have 0.1N NaOH

 

[sjjan]

It is $125 meter from Milwaukee Instr and i have not cleaned it for awhile. Definitely my next step before i do anything.

I have bad experiences with the Milwaukee ph Meyer. Have you tried another one to verify?

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I have bad experiences with the Milwaukee ph Meyer. Have you tried another one to verify?

How so? I have had mine for 2 years now and am very happy with it. Based on the price point I expect it's the same one that @pditt13 uses.

 

[pditt13]

I have the MW102, and i do have a pen meter that i have not used for a couple years. I can calibrate and try it. I already pitched the yeast but i had to pull some juice out so it didn't overflow. I can test it with both and see if i get the same reading.

 

[cmason1957]

I have the MW102, and i do have a pen meter that i have not used for a couple years. I can calibrate and try it. I already pitched the yeast but i had to pull some juice out so it didn't overflow. I can test it with both and see if i get the same reading.

If the Ph Meters have not been stored "properly' (and there is some discussion about proper procedures) even if they calibrate out correctly, they may produce off results. Ph meters are a constant source of frustration for me.

 

[pditt13]

I called Presque Isle wine cellars and talked to the winemaker. I explained everything to him and told him exactly what I did. He told me it was definitely low (which we all knew) and that they don't open them and test when it comes in, but if i let it finish fermentation and send him a sample he will test and give me recommendations.