Figuring out how to start growing grapes.

[CabEnthusiast]

So being as I'm a cheap bast..um...a Thrifty Gentleman, I went out and found some more pots for containerized grapes this year. I'm moving soon so big pots are the answer, but cheap is the key. Free being the best. Scored two feed buckets, each holding 5 cubic feet of dirt. But...10 cubic feet of dirt...cheap...

It's well known that many garden centers discount "culled" bagged goods like mulch and potting soil. I cruise my local ones this time of year for the clumsy summer hires, because I know later as the weather warms, they'll bust a few bags a week. But then I stumbled across a new grocery in town, with a garden center attached-a grocery, it seems, that no one notices they have a garden center attached. There are stacks and stacks of last year's bagged potting soil and topsoil, mulch, and BBQ charcoal...the plastic sun-baked and brittle, the pallets rotten and broken...So I asked if they do a discount on culled dirt...They do not. But the GM decided he needed to get rid of this, and asked how much I could haul away for him. As my S-10 will only carry 1200lbs in the bed, and I didn't have a trailer hooked up, I picked a pallet that looked about right, and got 23 1cuft bags of this sandy, coal-black, topsoil mix. For nothing. Free is good enough!

Sorry for the potato phone-the camera has this weird habit of focusing nice and sharp, then after a fraction of a second, defocusing to this fuzzy crap. I have no idea how to fix that. You can see the two big buckets strapped to the cab.

5 bags filled each big pot, leaving about two inches of open space on top for mulching later. There are 8 1" holes drilled in the bottom for drainage.

Now here's a Reliance grape that came from the same store-I felt like I should at least buy *something* for the free dirt, so I got one of the inexpensive off-the-shelf grape plants. 4.99, and this one had the largest root ball in the plastic bag, and it's a red grape, so far I only have the green grape on the fence, and the dark blue one in my existing container.

I have some questions-First, is this a grafted vine? It looks like a T-bud graft, but I've only seen them fresh, since my T-bud grafts never took.

Second, should I cut this back to a single growing cane, or is it too early to tell which one will be the keeper?

By figuring out the answers to these questions, it will help identify what I should be doing with the others, should they ever root.

I also have two bare-root 1-year plants of 3309C rootstock coming from Novavine later this month.

Novavine is the best, reasonable and virus free high quality grapes.

I just got another shipment of vines today

 

[Xnke]

Yes, you've mentioned novavine. I have a pair of 3309C bare-root vines coming, although it was pretty well the same price as a vine from Double A. Only 4$ less, but I did get two plants. We'll see how they do-as long as they grow a bit and I can get a chip graft on them to callus up, I'll be happy. The plan is let the buds on them grow out into canes this year, chip bud in any variety that I can get to take, and then cut the canes back this winter and use them to bench graft some others. We'll see what happens!

Finally got to talk to the director of the grape program over at the school, and was given some Cab Sauv and more Syrah cuttings. I packed a few in wet newsprint and stuck them in the fridge for budsticks, and am trying the bag of damp peat for rooting with some of the others.

He said that they only have one or two instructors who are really good at grafting, so he told me to expect a lot of failed grafts until I have a method that works-then to just do the way that works, regardless of what others say to do. He does bench grafting, and it works for him-but then he also gets them to root easy. One of the other instructors only does field grafts, and slashes vines to relieve the excessive sap pressure to keep the graft from getting pushed off before callusing.

On the current rooting front, the Niagara vines are all budding out, and I have removed all but the highest bud on the stick. If they start to grow, I'll knock them down to a half-leaf until I know they have roots-the ones I have checked do not even have callus tissue yet. I am not particularly hopeful for these.

The Vidal Blanc and Syrah sticks have not started to bud out-but when I pinched off one of the lower buds on the Vidal, it was still soft and green underneath. I am still hopeful for these.

 

[Xnke]

So far, none of the sticks have callused, grown roots, or done anything except attempt to make grapes.

Yes, two of the fencerow grape sticks in the dirt busted right into trying to make grapes, with no leaves, and no roots.

The Vidal Blanc and Syrah sticks that I stuck into dirt and had on the hot bar at 80F for the last two weeks appear to have done...nothing. No callusing, no roots, no nuthin'. But, they're still green, and the buds are still soft, so maybe they'll eventually do something.

I've got the bag-of-peat sticks left to check on, they appear to be OK but it's hard to tell. The buds are starting to grow out on a few of the sticks, but without yanking them out of the bag, it would be hard to tell if they've rooted.

 

[Masbustelo]

Regarding being patient with plants sometimes: A few years ago I ordered a cherry tree. I planted it in April. It finally produced leaves at the end of June. I was sure it was dead.

 

[CabEnthusiast]

Regarding being patient with plants sometimes: A few years ago I ordered a cherry tree. I planted it in April. It finally produced leaves at the end of June. I was sure it was dead.

cherry trees do best in pairs.

 

[Dennis Griffith]

Regarding being patient with plants sometimes: A few years ago I ordered a cherry tree. I planted it in April. It finally produced leaves at the end of June. I was sure it was dead.

I had a similar experience with a grape (Neptune) I ordered from a company that I usually only by trees from. It was dormant and bare root. I followed all of the proper care and planting, but it remained dormant for a long time. If it wasn't for me nipping and scratching to look for green, then I could have easy have pulled it up for dead. It took at least 2 months for it to come to life.

 

[Xnke]

Attempted my first two grafts today-One on 3309C rootstock that is still dormant, but rooted, and 1 on the old vine in the yard that had no buds on one arm of the trunk. I planned to cut that arm off as it grows through the fence and will eventually die off anyway, so I figure if I can chip bud in a new bud and get it to grow, then that arm isn't a total loss. There's another arm that has the same problem going on, but I ran out of talent and ruined three buds off the bud stick, so I didn't cut into it yet.

The 3309C rootstock graft seemed pretty easy as the two sticks were nearly the same size, but I had a hard time tying the parafilm grafting wrap. I don't know if I got it right or not.

The old vine in the corner was bigger diameter, which made it much easier to get the parafilm tied proper, but when I cut into it it shot sap out like I'd cut into a garden hose! It took two tries to get a bud cut properly to fit and then I tied it in tight with the parafilm, and made a bleed cut about two inches below the graft. Hopefully that will do the job.

Guess we'll see in a few weeks how they do.

 

[CabEnthusiast]

Attempted my first two grafts today-One on 3309C rootstock that is still dormant, but rooted, and 1 on the old vine in the yard that had no buds on one arm of the trunk. I planned to cut that arm off as it grows through the fence and will eventually die off anyway, so I figure if I can chip bud in a new bud and get it to grow, then that arm isn't a total loss. There's another arm that has the same problem going on, but I ran out of talent and ruined three buds off the bud stick, so I didn't cut into it yet.

The 3309C rootstock graft seemed pretty easy as the two sticks were nearly the same size, but I had a hard time tying the parafilm grafting wrap. I don't know if I got it right or not.

The old vine in the corner was bigger diameter, which made it much easier to get the parafilm tied proper, but when I cut into it it shot sap out like I'd cut into a garden hose! It took two tries to get a bud cut properly to fit and then I tied it in tight with the parafilm, and made a bleed cut about two inches below the graft. Hopefully that will do the job.

Guess we'll see in a few weeks how they do.

you did well

 

[Xnke]

Had to go cover the grafts and put buckets over all the other plants-supposed to be a tax day hard freeze tonight.

You'd think I would learn it. It happens every stinking year.

 

[Dennis Griffith]

I never quit worrying until May. Two years ago we had a hard freeze on May 14th. My grapes thought spring was here and didn't like it.

 

[CabEnthusiast]

I never quit worrying until May. Two years ago we had a hard freeze on May 14th. My grapes thought spring was here and didn't like it.

my grapes have been activse since late feb, I don't even think they went to sleep for longer than 2 months. I had a ton of rain in March.

 

[Dennis Griffith]

I'm glad mine are still dormant as it's snowing outside at this moment. This is Ohio and it will probably be 70 here tomorrow. Typically a rough start for the season here.

 

[Xnke]

So, in case any of you are wondering what this doofus is trying to do, here's the idea:

Year 1: get a rootstock growing to produce material for bench grafts. Learn how to get the grafts to be take, rootstock to root and 1 year plants to grow solid.

Year 2: get a trellis set up for 10 vines, and plant my bench grafts in them. Preferably on my own dirt, but that may have to wait til Year 3.

Ideally, I would have 1 or 2 table grape vines, and either grow 1 variety on the other 8 (probably syrah) or split them up (syrah, vidal blanc, or syrah, cab sav). I'm not terribly hung up on the variety, but I have pretty good soil here, and the growing season is pretty consistantly April 15 to September 30, with some excursions to mid October.

When it comes to budwood, I have access to a significant number of varieties that have done at least decently in my climate for 20 years, mostly vinefera hybrids and one or two hybrids.

 

[Dennis Griffith]

So, in case any of you are wondering what this doofus is trying to do, here's the idea:

Year 1: get a rootstock growing to produce material for bench grafts. Learn how to get the grafts to be take, rootstock to root and 1 year plants to grow solid.

Year 2: get a trellis set up for 10 vines, and plant my bench grafts in them. Preferably on my own dirt, but that may have to wait til Year 3.

Ideally, I would have 1 or 2 table grape vines, and either grow 1 variety on the other 8 (probably syrah) or split them up (syrah, vidal blanc, or syrah, cab sav). I'm not terribly hung up on the variety, but I have pretty good soil here, and the growing season is pretty consistantly April 15 to September 30, with some excursions to mid October.

When it comes to budwood, I have access to a significant number of varieties that have done at least decently in my climate for 20 years, mostly vinefera hybrids and one or two hybrids.

What area are we speaking of?

 

[CabEnthusiast]

So, in case any of you are wondering what this doofus is trying to do, here's the idea:

Year 1: get a rootstock growing to produce material for bench grafts. Learn how to get the grafts to be take, rootstock to root and 1 year plants to grow solid.

Year 2: get a trellis set up for 10 vines, and plant my bench grafts in them. Preferably on my own dirt, but that may have to wait til Year 3.

Ideally, I would have 1 or 2 table grape vines, and either grow 1 variety on the other 8 (probably syrah) or split them up (syrah, vidal blanc, or syrah, cab sav). I'm not terribly hung up on the variety, but I have pretty good soil here, and the growing season is pretty consistantly April 15 to September 30, with some excursions to mid October.

When it comes to budwood, I have access to a significant number of varieties that have done at least decently in my climate for 20 years, mostly vinefera hybrids and one or two hybrids.

You jumped right in and are doing more than most of us are. I'm a pioneer in my area in that I'm planting many varietals that nobody has ever had here before.

I'm the first to plant Blaufrankisch. Which is my experimental grape for my area.

 

[Xnke]

What area are we speaking of?

Central Kentucky. Zone 6, Crider series clay loam soil. In my current location it's about 38 inches till you hit rock, but the county I work in and hope to be buying dirt in, it's about 100 inches to the limestone. Soil acidity is slight to neutral, 48 inches of rain per year, and between 3600 and 4000 degree days in the growing season. The clay-silt loam is pretty nutrient rich, doesn't have as much limestone as you would think being on limestone bedrock, and is well drained.

 

[Dennis Griffith]

You jumped right in and are doing more than most of us are. I'm a pioneer in my area in that I'm planting many varietals that nobody has ever had here before.

I'm the first to plant Blaufrankisch. Which is my experimental grape for my area.

I understand the Lemberger variety is gaining popularity in the NY area. I understand it's not very resistant to PM, which is a problem in my area.

 

[Dennis Griffith]

Central Kentucky. Zone 6, Crider series clay loam soil. In my current location it's about 38 inches till you hit rock, but the county I work in and hope to be buying dirt in, it's about 100 inches to the limestone. Soil acidity is slight to neutral, 48 inches of rain per year, and between 3600 and 4000 degree days in the growing season. The clay-silt loam is pretty nutrient rich, doesn't have as much limestone as you would think being on limestone bedrock, and is well drained.

I'm in south central Ohio and not far from KY. We have similar soil types and problems. But they do have grape root borer issues in some areas of KY, so beware. I've been worried that it could spread across the river at some point. I have added milky spore in and around the vineyard, mainly to decrease the Japanese beetle population (another issue for our region), and am curious to any effect it would have on deterring root borers. There is a good testing lab nearby that I use. I'll get you the info, if you like. They have an agronomist on staff that is well versed in viticulture.

 

[Xnke]

A few shots of my grafting attempts:

First, the Syrah on the fencerow vine:

After pulling the loose bark off out of the way, I set the bud in place.

After tying off, a pair of bleed cuts below the bud:

And the one on the 3309C rootstock:

A few other views, this one is a Reliance in a too-small pot, but it'll get set into a larger one when Ican get it:

Who needs leaves? Or roots...Not this guy.

And a longer shot of the Mars in the ladder trellis:

I promise it's in there, but it hadn't budded out in this photo.

 

[Xnke]

Dennis, I'm right next to the WKU vineyards, so any issues they have I'll have here-so far, so good. Biggest problems locally are black rot and powdery mildew, and due to PM being a huge problem for the local tobacco growers we've been lucky that they hunted down and killed off as much as they possibly can for decades-makes for a much easier time keeping it under control here. There was a time where the tobacco farmers would spray for mildew on homeowner's crops who lived nearby!

As to pests-Japanese beetles are the main problem here, alongside golden beetles. They're a year-to-year problem, the last 10 years haven't been too much a pest in my yard, but go a few blocks down the street and they've stripped roses and beans to nothing.