Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits

[dmw_chef]

cheers @Gilmango, appreciate the detailed answer

 

[globalnavigator]

Long thread, so this may have been addressed already, but are the Finer Wine kits pure varietals or blends? I understand some like Super Tuscan are blends, but what about the ones like Barbera, Zinfandel, Sav Blanc, etc.?

 

[jgmann67]

Long thread, so this may have been addressed already, but are the Finer Wine kits pure varietals or blends? I understand some like Super Tuscan are blends, but what about the ones like Barbera, Zinfandel, Sav Blanc, etc.?

I’d be interested to see what Matt at Label Peelers says in response toa question like that. I’d home that single grape kits only have that one grape’s juice in it.

 

[Gilmango]

Long thread, so this may have been addressed already, but are the Finer Wine kits pure varietals or blends? I understand some like Super Tuscan are blends, but what about the ones like Barbera, Zinfandel, Sav Blanc, etc.?

Agree with @jgmann67 on both points, 1-curious if Matt can confirm, and also 2-assumed the kits (beyond Super Tuscan or Bordeaux) were pure varietals. I know for bottled wines made in USA you can label it by varietal so long as it is at least 75% of that varietal (and you don't have to say what else you put in either, though better wineries will generally share that info). Not sure if that is the case with kits but guessing the same logic applies and a kit maker could label something a Zin when it included 25% or less of other varietals (either due to being a field blend, or due to wanting to up the color, or tannin, or fruit, or even just use some varietal which wasn't selling as well).

I did post earlier in this thread about a more specific but related question, about the skin packs. That is I wondered aloud if the skin packs included were varietal-specific, and, if not, wondered if they might share any info on what the skin packs were. My guess is that you get the same skin pack whether you order the Cab kit, the Syrah kit, or the Pinot kit, but I'd love to be told I'm wrong. Assuming first guess is right then my guess about the make up of the skin kits is that it is just a mix of all red grape varietals from whomever in Lodi they are getting their juice/concentrate from. Back up guess was that it was all Merlot as that is what they suggest as the topping wine, it is widely available, and nicely middle of the road red. Third guess, since it is Lodi, where I think Zin is still most widely planted is all Zin skins, also compatible with other grape varietals I think.

While I recognize and respect that some of this may be "trade secrets" I'd love it if Matt could share what he can about these questions.

 

[G259]

I'm kind of straddling both side of this debate. One of the inherent values of the traditional kits is the wide range of kit types that are available any time of year. The lack of variety that Finer Wines offers is not a problem for me but only because they are offering the kinds of wines I like. Since it is not a commercial enterprise for me that's all I care about. I hope @cmason1957 is right that the supply is a startup issue and will get solved in the future. On the other hand, if the problem originates from the process (i.e. less flexible because it has to stay refrigerated) it may be harder to solve. At the moment I'm sure they are just overjoyed by the response. Good for them and good for us because they will keep it going.

I agree, and add that the financial aspect of newer companies is 'top of the list'! How much can you borrow? You have to show and sell it to the financial institution, in order to be financed. I say, buy what you can, to keep this wonderful company going! (And no, I have no ties to this company, just a customer.)

 

[globalnavigator]

I’d be interested to see what Matt at Label Peelers says in response to a question like that. I’d hope that single grape kits only have that one grape’s juice in it.

A previous thread you may want to check out is here. The end goal is always good wine, but it would be nice to know what's in it, right?

 

[ratflinger]

So my barbera is topped up, with a mix of cubes and spiral imparting oaky goodness. And, I hit it with a dose of Kmeta.

Now we wait.

I did the math and have roughly 70 gallons of wine in Carboys, or about 350 bottles. Looks like I need to step up the bottle processing sooner than later. And, with most of them headed towards a Bordeaux bottle, this is going to get tricky. I hate to say it but I might have to buy some at the LHBS.

Hey me too! - I bottle my long term & my whites, but the table wine gets kegged. I'm not bottling that much.

 

[acowz]

Hey all!! I'm newer to wine making, only 2 kits under my belt in the last year, but I've quickly fallen for the hobby. Thankfully I found this great forum with tons of information and helpful people. On to the story/questions though. So I picked up a couple of FW kits a couple of weeks ago (Sangiovese & Barbera - both with double skins) with the intention of starting them already, but life happened and I ended up tossing them into the freezer until I hit a little slow down. Well the slow down is coming and I'm back to planning. My original thinking was a normal start followed by an EM of approximately 6-8 weeks, and then following the rest of the instructions closely (reading more about the sorbate and clarifiers and I'm not sold on either direction yet). My question for everyone is with these already being in a freezer I was thinking about doing a short cold soaking. Essentially the plan would be to put everything in the primaries and let them come to room temp (1 or 2 days) and then start fermentation when they temp rises. I don't have the equipment or room to store these buckets cold for any extended period of time so is it worth it to follow with the cold soak or should I just let the juice and skins come to room temp separately? Should I still plan for the 6/8 week EM if I do a short cold soak? Any other advise or learnings are greatly appreciated.

TIA

 

[winemaker81]

Long thread, so this may have been addressed already, but are the Finer Wine kits pure varietals or blends? I understand some like Super Tuscan are blends, but what about the ones like Barbera, Zinfandel, Sav Blanc, etc.?

I asked Matt Pruszynski of LP via email, what is in the FWK kits. His response, published with his permission, is:

Aside from the Bordeaux and Super Tuscan FWK kits, all other kits are pure varietal. While I personally prefer blending all of my wines that I make from fresh grapes and juices to add complexity, during the R & D phase with the FWK staff, it was decided that going with pure varietals and allowing customers to blend on their own was the truest way for customers to know that they got what they paid for. That's always been a pet peeve of mine with traditional kit manufacturers. They never divulge what's actually in it and call it a trade secret.

 

[Gilmango]

Hey all!! I'm newer to wine making, only 2 kits under my belt in the last year, but I've quickly fallen for the hobby. Thankfully I found this great forum with tons of information and helpful people. On to the story/questions though. So I picked up a couple of FW kits a couple of weeks ago (Sangiovese & Barbera - both with double skins) with the intention of starting them already, but life happened and I ended up tossing them into the freezer until I hit a little slow down. Well the slow down is coming and I'm back to planning. My original thinking was a normal start followed by an EM of approximately 6-8 weeks, and then following the rest of the instructions closely (reading more about the sorbate and clarifiers and I'm not sold on either direction yet). My question for everyone is with these already being in a freezer I was thinking about doing a short cold soaking. Essentially the plan would be to put everything in the primaries and let them come to room temp (1 or 2 days) and then start fermentation when they temp rises. I don't have the equipment or room to store these buckets cold for any extended period of time so is it worth it to follow with the cold soak or should I just let the juice and skins come to room temp separately? Should I still plan for the 6/8 week EM if I do a short cold soak? Any other advise or learnings are greatly appreciated.

TIA

With the caveat that I am also newer to wine making, I don't think the "cold soak" will hurt at all, but I don't think it will give you nearly as much added extraction as the 6-8 week EM you are planning. So no downside to doing both that I see, so long as you have the right vessels to do the EM (just something you can seal under air lock).

The only other thought is that either of those varietals could be a good candidate for earlier drinking if you were eager to have some wine ready sooner than later. If that appealed to you then you might go skin-less for that varietal, or perhaps do just one skin pack and skip the EM for the early drinker, then add those skins to the other varietal where you are doing the EM. By way of example, keep one of the two double skin packs in the freezer (for a future wine), start both wines with one skin pack for your short cold soak and primary fermentation. Then rack the early drinker (I vote Barbera) to secondary off the one skin pack, but then add those skins to the later drinker just before you seal up that vessel for the EM. Purely an idea, I'm sure both will also benefit from the double skin packs and EM if you are in no rush.

 

[Gilmango]

I asked Matt Pruszynski of LP via email, what is in the FWK kits. His response, published with his permission, is:

Aside from the Bordeaux and Super Tuscan FWK kits, all other kits are pure varietal. While I personally prefer blending all of my wines that I make from fresh grapes and juices to add complexity, during the R & D phase with the FWK staff, it was decided that going with pure varietals and allowing customers to blend on their own was the truest way for customers to know that they got what they paid for. That's always been a pet peeve of mine with traditional kit manufacturers. They never divulge what's actually in it and call it a trade secret.

That's great news, thanks for sharing with Matt's permission! I love the transparency.

I do agree that blends can add complexity, but this way we know what is in each FW kit (besides the two blends, and even there we have most of the info just not the %s), so we can try out our own blending without guess work. Or not blend and get to truly taste varietal distinctions which may not really exist in other kits (to the extent that they are often blends, generally with no disclosure).

 

[winemaker81]

I'm investigating EC and have been reading a variety of articles, deciding if it's something I want. This article talks about the results of EC. While I found the entire article interesting, there is a section dedicated specifically to EC.

https://winemakermag.com/article/maceration-considerations

 

[Gilmango]

I'm investigating EC and have been reading a variety of articles, deciding if it's something I want. This article talks about the results of EC. While I found the entire article interesting, there is a section dedicated specifically to EC.

https://winemakermag.com/article/maceration-considerations

That article is behind a paywall, so if you wouldn't mind summarizing what they said about extended maceration vs. cold soak that'd be appreciated.

 

[winemaker81]

That article is behind a paywall, so if you wouldn't mind summarizing what they said about extended maceration vs. cold soak that'd be appreciated.

Sorry about that -- I thought that was a free article.

Anywho, my summary of the pertinent parts:

• In general, most color extraction occurs in first 2 days, while tannin extraction is much more gradual. Graph showed continuing extraction for 2 weeks (tannin extraction lasts longer). [the article didn't directly state it, but I believe this is from the beginning of fermentation.]
• Cold soak temperature should be 40-50 F (4-10 C). Warmer temperature allows unwanted microbial life to grow.
• Cold soak length is typically overnight, up to a week. Longer duration increases potential for unwanted microbial life to grow.
• Cold soak doesn't seem to affect color; oddly enough, tannin extraction may experience decrease.
• Cold soak may increase aromatic complexity.
• Extended maceration duration is typically 7 to 30 days.
• EC increases seed tannin and overall tannin level.
• EC may cause aggressive tannin of well-extracted red becomes softer and smoother.
• Ensure seeds are ripe, as unripe seeds extract too much, very harsh tannins.
• During EC, must limit oxidation and potential for spoilage; use variable capacity or sealed container. Trash cans (e.g., Rubbermaid Brutes) don't seal and are not recommended.

The article states the concept started in France, and has spread around the world. However, most of the winemakers interviewed either don't use EC or use it for specific wines.

My take? My grapes (during last 2 years) arrived refrigerated and take a day to come up to mid-to-upper 60's F. I'll add an extraction enzyme at crush time, add shredded fermentation oak upon arriving home, do the 1 day cold soak as the grapes come up to temp, inoculate, and press when the SG is below 1.000. I don't have a variable size tank and am making batches large enough that I don't have a primary with a sealable lid large enough to make it worth my while.

BTW, I get an email from WineMakerMag once or twice a week listing 3 free and 3 paid articles. I've found the $30/year price has been worth it as I read enough of the paid articles. Most of the articles are very short, but there are enough detailed ones to catch and keep my interest.

 

[acowz]

@Gilmango I like the idea of an early drinker so I will likely go single or no skins on the Barbera. I have another caveat to my wine making journey this fall. I have a WE Amarone kit that I am planning to make after these two get to the bulk age stage. Any thoughts on using the FW skins in this kit?

@winemaker81 thanks for the synopsis of the article. It seems like there is not much to lose by doing a quick cold soak while the juice temp rises to room temp. and then sealing the buckets up with an airlock after the primary has finished. I'll have to check into the WineMakerMag website. If someone like yourself finds it a useful tool and worth the yearly investment I'm sure I would as well.

 

[winemaker81]

@acowz, before I signed up with WineMakerMag, I got a 2 week freebie. Check if that is available and you can decide if it's worth the investment.

Keep in mind I don't necessarily agree with everything I read on WMM, but I find the articles to be at least as useful as other sources. The big benefit of the internet is there is so much stuff available. The drawback of the internet is there is so much "stuff" available.

I need to add a page of links to my site. I've got dozens of sites bookmarked, but it would be helpful to me to better organize them.

I'm not sold on EM yet. I'm not sure it will give me a benefit that I want. I used shredded fermentation oak and an extraction enzyme last fall with great results. I'd like to see the results of testing of that vs. EM, although I don't expect to find such a study.

 

[jgmann67]

@acowz I have a big pile of clarifiers and sulfite/sorbate packets that I've accumulated over the last couple years. I stopped using both. Now, I just have some patience and dose with fresh Kmeta instead.

 

[acowz]

@acowz I have a big pile of clarifiers and sulfite/sorbate packets that I've accumulated over the last couple years. I stopped using both. Now, I just have some patience and dose with fresh Kmeta instead.

Have you noticed any change in taste? I obviously have only a couple of kits under my belt, but even my unrefined taste could tell something was off in my previous kits. It dissipated with time and decanting, but I think I might have been getting the "kit taste" that everyone talks about. The good thing about have some wine already made is that I have the opportunity to be a lot more patient this year and allowing the wine to do its thing.

 

[Gilmango]

@Gilmango I like the idea of an early drinker so I will likely go single or no skins on the Barbera. I have another caveat to my wine making journey this fall. I have a WE Amarone kit that I am planning to make after these two get to the bulk age stage. Any thoughts on using the FW skins in this kit?

I think you could definitely add the FW skins to a WE Amarone kit. The only caveat is that I think your WE Amarone kit will already come with skins, possibly raisins as well (the RJS ones have both skins and raisins). But Amarone is a nice big wine which you will probably want to age, so I don't see any harm in doubling down on the skins there, as well as doing a nice long EM.

I just moved an RJS En Primeur Amarone (2020 version with 18 liters of juice & concentrate) to the carboy for bulk aging after a 9 week EM on raisins, wet skins, and some dried cherries I added for fun. Its taste was amazing.

As jgmann mentioned, I have also moved away from clarifiers, and never used sorbate at all. Just kmeta and time, and adding things like tannin and/or oak during the aging. My very first kit (RJS Int'l Cru Nebbiolo 12 liter) had a bit of sweetness I did not love even though it got down to 0.994, not sure if that was "kit taste", but after 6 months of bulk aging with oak and tannins it seemed better balanced, and not as sweet.

 

[winemaker81]

I have a big pile of clarifiers and sulfite/sorbate packets that I've accumulated over the last couple years

Any that are a year old from the time you purchased the kit, I suggest you bin them. I have yet to find a definitive answer to when sorbate is too old, but IMO it's not worth making 25-30 miniature volcanos to save a bit of $$$. I make the arbitrary point 1 year from purchase, although I look at the kit manufacture date, and may junk the yeast, K-meta, and sorbate, anyway,

I make 95% dry wine and don't use sorbate in kits unless backsweetening, so I was building up a backlog myself.

I obviously have only a couple of kits under my belt, but even my unrefined taste could tell something was off in my previous kits.

Kit taste is hard to describe, but it's likely you have it.

The good news is the new formulation of WE kits appears much better. I started WE 10 liter Cabernet Sauvignon & Chardonnay last September, and when I bottled at the 7 month mark, there was no KWT in the Cab. I have my fingers crossed.

FWKs believes KWT comes from pasteurization, but I don't taste KWT in whites, so I lean towards the source being the extraction and/or concentration method used for reds.

We'll see how the new WE formulation turns out, and how the FWK turns out. FWK can be wrong about pasteurization and still make a better kit at a better price. Time will tell.

After proof-reading, I figure I'm using enough acronyms. This has got to be mind-boggling for newcomers!

K-meta -- potassium metabisulfite
WE -- Winexpert, kit wine vendor
KTW -- Kit Wine Taste
FWK -- Finer Wine Kits, kit wine vendor