Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits

[Matteo_Lahm]

@Matteo_Lahm
Wondering if you could share some insights regarding @Cap Puncher's questions.

This is a good suggestion. We are going to look into this. It won’t do anything with the polyphenyl oxidase issue because it’s after the fact but we will run some tests to see if it produces better aromatics and flavor.
Matteo

 

[winemaker81]

But, I’m struggling with the use of the term “gross lees” here. To me, “gross lees” are chunky detritus to me - seeds and depleted skins.

A lot of sites describe gross lees as that, but that's pomace.

AFAIK, gross lees is the fine fruit pulp particles that are in suspension following pressing. From what I've read, most of this drops within 24 to 48 hours of the end of fermentation. From a human eye POV, it doesn't look much different from fine lees, so I assume the difference is noted more under a microscope, e.g., 1 micron is a lot different from 100 microns. [This is illustration; I have no idea what the particles sizes are.]

I notice the gross lees is more "sticky" or "gummy" acting -- when cleaning the carboy I notice a significant difference in the way the first sediment moves versus subsequent sediment layers. But that also depends on the yeast's flocularity (amount expended hulls stick together), as gross lees contains a fair amount of yeast hulls as well.

If anyone has a better definition of the difference between gross and fine lees, please post it.

 

[jgmann67]

A lot of sites describe gross lees as that, but that's pomace.

AFAIK, gross lees is the fine fruit pulp particles that are in suspension following pressing. From what I've read, most of this drops within 24 to 48 hours of the end of fermentation. From a human eye POV, it doesn't look much different from fine lees, so I assume the difference is noted more under a microscope, e.g., 1 micron is a lot different from 100 microns. [This is illustration; I have no idea what the particles sizes are.]

I notice the gross lees is more "sticky" or "gummy" acting -- when cleaning the carboy I notice a significant difference in the way the first sediment moves versus subsequent sediment layers. But that also depends on the yeast's flocularity (amount expended hulls stick together), as gross lees contains a fair amount of yeast hulls as well.

If anyone has a better definition of the difference between gross and fine lees, please post it.

Thank you. This is well done and gets me where I needed to be.

 

[Brant]

I was considering the same. That after racking, the majority of the gross stuff would be removed. I know there is always more pulled out after fining but I considered that it was less significant to producing off flavors in the finished product. I obviously do not know but I would hate to lose benefits by racking again too early.

 

[winemaker81]

I was considering the same. That after racking, the majority of the gross stuff would be removed. I know there is always more pulled out after fining but I considered that it was less significant to producing off flavors in the finished product. I obviously do not know but I would hate to lose benefits by racking again too early.

Some of the following may contradict my earlier statements, but in thinking this through I noticed a few things that contradict conventional racking guidelines.

When to do the next racking after pressing/first racking is not a clear decision. I've read that the fruit products start to decompose quickly, which is a reason for stirring daily during fermentation. One source stated that wine must be racked off the gross lees within a day to avoid spoilage ... but experience indicates that is not correct. Just because someone posted a study or wrote a book does not mean it's correct.

Red grapes? Conventional advice says to rack quickly off the gross lees, sometimes within a few days. OTOH, the guys that taught me typically racked 3 weeks after pressing. In further contrast, folks currently doing EM are letting the wine set on the pomace (and gross lees) for up to 8 weeks with no ill effects. So? It appears the need to immediately eliminate the gross lees is overstated for red wine.

I don't have an explanation on this point -- I'm just pointing out facts that contradict conventional advice.

My habit of racking kits between 1.000 and 1.010, and letting fermentation finish for a week or so in the carboy is fine by this standard. I will continue to rack off the gross lees relatively quickly, but won't stress over it. I'll wait until the lees starts to compact before racking, to avoid wasting wine unnecessarily.

I suspect this is also true for dark fruit, especially elderberries.

White grapes and light fruit? Both lack the heavy constitution of red grape, so racking off the gross lees in 4 to 7 days makes sense. No one that I know of is leaving them on gross lees for weeks. The lighter body and flavor make it more likely for the gross lees to negatively affect the wine. I'll err on the side of caution, as once the wine is ruined, there's no coming back.

 

[Swedeman]

My habit of racking kits between 1.000 and 1.010, and letting fermentation finish for a week or so in the carboy is fine by this standard.

I even stopped that doing, I will rack once fermentation is done unless doing EM.

Edit: but I see no reason why anybody should stop racking between 1.000 and 1.010. Due to work travels I could never time that but with perhaps 50 batches now without that racking, I haven't seen any issue doing so.

 

[winemaker81]

I even stopped that doing, I will rack once fermentation is done unless doing EM.

Edit: but I see no reason why anybody should stop racking between 1.000 and 1.010. Due to work travels I could never time that but with perhaps 50 batches now without that racking, I haven't seen any issue doing so.

I started the practice due to a work situation, as I traveled sporadically. Racking before I traveled ensured I'd have no problems if travel ran long.

 

[ratflinger]

My SOP is 1 month in the fermenter, 1 month in the 1st carboy, 1 month in the 2nd carboy, filter, and 3+ months in the Better Bottles. I have not noticed any changes in taste using this method. Haven't made swill yet, but even if I did I have other uses for it.

 

[Brant]

If I had two 3 gal carboys I would run an experiment. As is, I need to pick a path forward.

The more I read, the less I know what is best. Seems like there are a lot of factors and no perfect answer.

I made a red that sat in secondary for just over 4 weeks before I racked off the gross lees (although this kit didn't have skins or seeds). The first impression taste at racking was really good.

This kit is obviously very different. I guess not having more to go off of I'll probably press and rack before I leave. Hopefully I don't sacrifice quality by doing this.

 

[Jovimaple]

If I had two 3 gal carboys I would run an experiment. As is, I need to pick a path forward.

The more I read, the less I know what is best. Seems like there are a lot of factors and no perfect answer.

I made a red that sat in secondary for just over 4 weeks before I racked off the gross lees (although this kit didn't have skins or seeds). The first impression taste at racking was really good.

This kit is obviously very different. I guess not having more to go off of I'll probably press and rack before I leave. Hopefully I don't sacrifice quality by doing this.

I am sensing that you need more carboys!!!!

 

[winemaker81]

The more I read, the less I know what is best. Seems like there are a lot of factors and no perfect answer.

Nope, there are no perfect answers, and there are a multitude of factors. Take a deep breath and relax -- you are doing fine. This is what winemaking is -- it's an adventure each and every time.

You are on the path to wisdom -- learning how much you don't know!

This kit is obviously very different. I guess not having more to go off of I'll probably press and rack before I leave. Hopefully I don't sacrifice quality by doing this.

You won't sacrifice quality. Leaving the wine on the gross lees too long is the potential problem. My previous post raises doubt as to the duration of that period, but that doesn't matter for your situation.

The safest course of action is to rack before you leave. Make sure your airlocks are full and don't worry! You wine will be fine.

 

[pour750ml]

This is a good suggestion. We are going to look into this. It won’t do anything with the polyphenyl oxidase issue because it’s after the fact but we will run some tests to see if it produces better aromatics and flavor.
Matteo

Thank you!

 

[bstnh1]

I even stopped that doing, I will rack once fermentation is done unless doing EM.

Edit: but I see no reason why anybody should stop racking between 1.000 and 1.010. Due to work travels I could never time that but with perhaps 50 batches now without that racking, I haven't seen any issue doing so. try.

I used to do the 5-7 day racking that the old WE instructions called for. Then when they went to the 14 day primary with no racking until then, I gave that a shot. I've pretty much stayed with that practice as I haven't noticed any downside. I wind up doing the first racking somewhere around the two week mark, often a few days earlier, and the SG usually comes in somewhere between .992 and .996. I always do several rackings after stabilizing anyway, so I guess I wind up saving one in the long run. But it does make it easier and I don't worry about watching the SG like hawk. I mean, is it really going to make a difference if you rack at 1.002, or .998, or .994? I haven't found that it does. Anyone have a different experience?

 

[winemaker81]

I mean, is it really going to make a difference if you rack at 1.002, or .998, or .994? I haven't found that it does. Anyone have a different experience?

I'm fairly certain the answer is "no".

I am critically examining my processes, to ensure everything I do is both necessary and my best choice for the situation. Things I've done for decades, either because that's what I was taught, or is simple habit, are being questioned.

A mentor told me, "never hang in to a mistake, just because you spent so much time making it."

Not that my processes are mistakes, but it's likely there is room for improvement.

 

[Swedeman]

I wind up doing the first racking somewhere around the two week mark, often a few days earlier, and the SG usually comes in somewhere between .992 and .996. I always do several rackings after stabilizing anyway, so I guess I wind up saving one in the long run. But it does make it easier and I don't worry about watching the SG like hawk. I mean, is it really going to make a difference if you rack at 1.002, or .998, or .994? I haven't found that it does.

Well said and yeah, that's exactly my view on it. There is so many "myths" within the brewing area, this in my view being one of them. But like I said before, if anyone would like check gravity every day and rack when within 1,000 and 1,010, please do so. Whatever butters your biscuit. But really don't see the point.

A mentor told me, "never hang in to a mistake, just because you spent so much time making it."

That was one smart mentor.

 

[Cap Puncher]

This is a good suggestion. We are going to look into this. It won’t do anything with the polyphenyl oxidase issue because it’s after the fact but we will run some tests to see if it produces better aromatics and flavor.
Matteo

@Matteo_Lahm
I actually think the Glutastar would prevent the polyphenyl oxidase issues in the white concentrates. I would add it at crush or in the settling tank prior to the concentrate being made (not sure if that is possible). The Glutastar is an inactivated yeast product rich in glutathione and stabilizing peptides. See study below about glutathione inhibiting polyphenyl oxidase by 99.4% in grape juice.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...tic_and_non-enzymatic_browning_in_grape_juice

 

[heatherd]

@Brant, ask questions now! Don't wait until you need an immediate answer!

Sorbate is added to all kits as a preventive measure, to help beginners NOT produce purple mini-volcanos, which will happen if the wine is not fermented dry. Kit instructions are optimized for beginners who have no experienced help. If you are using a hydrometer and getting a low enough reading, sorbate should not be necessary for non-backsweetened wines. After bulk aging a year, you should be fine.

Add 1/4 tsp K-meta every 3 months and during each racking after fermentation is complete.

FWK Packet D is K-meta/sorbate, and most vendors appear to be combining them as of a few years ago. I date sorbate packages and drop 'em in a drawer. If I make a backsweetened wine, they get used, else I bin them a year or so later. Sorbate has a limited shelf life, and since I have no idea how long the packet sat in a warehouse, I exercise caution and bin them. It's far cheaper to buy sorbate as needed and NOT have to unbottle and recork a batch, and there's no mess to clean up.

I add fining agents right after fermentation, as it gets the gross lees out. Once a wine goes into bulk aging, unless there is a build-up of gross lees (and after fining there shouldn't be), I do not rack as it's not necessary. Fine lees is expended yeast hulls and can be left in. Look up "sur lie" and "battonage".

Filtering is NOT for clearing the wine, it's for polishing. If you have a cloudy wine, you will probably plug the filter, so use fining agents and/or give it time. I haven't filtered in decades, but when I did, that was done shortly before bottling.

I separated racking from kmeta schedule for my wines because I realized that they probably don't benefit from being done at the same time. So, I add kmeta every three months and rack three to four times over the course of the wine's process.

 

[Brant]

I separated racking from kmeta schedule for my wines because I realized that they probably don't benefit from being done at the same time. So, I add kmeta every three months and rack three to four times over the course of the wine's process.

What is the benefit to racking multiple times during aging? I obviously don't have much experience but I figured the less I mess with it the better. I figured I would prob rack when I add kmeta in the first 3 months and maybe 6 months since it might help pull out some sediment but because I'm filtering during bottling, I figured even racking at these intervals is not very important.

 

[Ohio Bob]

A rule of thumb is to rack when you see some lees. So at an early stage in the process it can be 1 week, or 1 month. After that it probably is when the sulfite protection has gone away. Some people might push it farther with no problem, but could be acceptable based on the multitude of factors that would have to align. With whites you can deviate from this because you can see any sediment if it exists, so rack earlier if it’s warranted.

You should be sulfiting at every racking when your going out to 3 months. It protects the wine from bad things (bacteria, etc) getting in.

 

[jgmann67]

What is the benefit to racking multiple times during aging? I obviously don't have much experience but I figured the less I mess with it the better. I figured I would prob rack when I add kmeta in the first 3 months and maybe 6 months since it might help pull out some sediment but because I'm filtering during bottling, I figured even racking at these intervals is not very important.

i do the same. For someone like me that doesn’t use fining agents in their wine, the benefits are really two-fold. First, it gives an indicationof whether the wine is still shedding fine lees. Second, I’m pretty sure Heather vacuum racks and that helps to fully degas the wine. Not so much a benefit, but it’s also a good time to taste the wine to see how the wine is progressing.