Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits

[She’sgonnakillme]

I’m looking for some information, thoughts, opinions. I just started a FW Forte Zinfandel kit. In the past, the kits with skin were done with an eight week EM. I’m wondering if the seeds in this kit are going to be a factor if I do an EM.
I expect the seeds to add tannins, but by extending their time in the wine, will they impart an excessive amount?
OR, am I just overthinking this?

If doing an EM, I would rack off the gross lees when it hits 1.00 into another fermenter along with the skins. I would think the seeds would have settled at that point and be in the gross lees, but I haven’t tried it yet so just a thought.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

hello! How long do you want to extend it?

I’m looking for some information, thoughts, opinions. I just started a FW Forte Zinfandel kit. In the past, the kits with skin were done with an eight week EM. I’m wondering if the seeds in this kit are going to be a factor if I do an EM.
I expect the seeds to add tannins, but by extending their time in the wine, will they impart an excessive amount?
OR, am I just overthinking this?

 

[Lynx rufus]

In the past I’ve done 8 weeks EM and have been happy with the results. Transferring it off of the lees into a carboy to continue EM wouldn’t work as the skins wouldn’t fit into the carboy. I’d need to buy another Fermonster.
I’m just wondering the effect the seeds will have in an EM.
This said, if they’re going to have an adverse effect, then I’ll follow the instructions, no problem.
I was just thinking ahead.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

That little fermenter you have is pretty cool. You could just get it off the seeds after 14 days and let it continue with just the skins.

In the past I’ve done 8 weeks EM and have been happy with the results. Transferring it off of the lees into a carboy to continue EM wouldn’t work as the skins wouldn’t fit into the carboy. I’d need to buy another Fermonster.
I’m just wondering the effect the seeds will have in an EM.
This said, if they’re going to have an adverse effect, then I’ll follow the instructions, no problem.
I was just thinking ahead.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

My next thought is that you can just leave it. You’re not putting this through a wine press so you don’t run any risk of cracking the seeds which becomes more of a problem with longer maceration. As the seeds soak longer and longer, the shells weaken. Plus you can just keep tasting it and once it gets Tannic enough, then you can move it.

In the past I’ve done 8 weeks EM and have been happy with the results. Transferring it off of the lees into a carboy to continue EM wouldn’t work as the skins wouldn’t fit into the carboy. I’d need to buy another Fermonster.
I’m just wondering the effect the seeds will have in an EM.
This said, if they’re going to have an adverse effect, then I’ll follow the instructions, no problem.
I was just thinking ahead.

 

[David Violante]

That looks great @Lynx rufus. I’ve done six week EM with the zinfandel in the past and as you related it was very good. There’s not much left… I haven’t done one with the seeds yet, however. That’s next.

I would think it would be ok as @Matteo_Lahm indicated, but I would be careful about opening it up to try it too many times. There’s a lot of headspace in there that’s protected at the moment. Maybe once around week six and then decide to rack it or not. If you decided to keep it going and had a way to sparge the space with nitrogen or argon I think that would be helpful.

 

[Matteo_Lahm]

Excellent point about not opening it up too much. You could probably get in there with a wine thief through the airlock hole. That would disturb it minimally.

That looks great @Lynx rufus. I’ve done six week EM with the zinfandel in the past and as you related it was very good. There’s not much left… I haven’t done one with the seeds yet, however. That’s next.

I would think it would be ok as @Matteo_Lahm indicated, but I would be careful about opening it up to try it too many times. There’s a lot of headspace in there that’s protected at the moment. Maybe once around week six and then decide to rack it or not. If you decided to keep it going and had a way to sparge the space with nitrogen or argon I think that would be helpful.

 

[my wine]

I'm planning on getting a Pinot Noir FWK. Undecided as to a single skin or double skin pack with seeds. Not a whole lot of difference in the price and I plan on aging it a year or longer. Has anyone done a comparison with the Pinot Noir kits or any of the FWKs between the single pack and the double pack with seeds? I made a Zin with double pack 6 months ago. Still aging and tastes very good but not mature yet.

Also, any feedback on what the seeds impart to the finished wine?

 

[ChuckD]

Excellent point about not opening it up too much. You could probably get in there with a wine thief through the airlock hole. That would disturb it minimally.

I have a glass eye dropper that’s about 8 “ long that came with some graduated cylinders I bought. Something like that would easily fit through the drilled hole in the bung.

 

[Lynx rufus]

Thanks for your thoughts. I’m going to ponder about this, since I started it today, there’s time.
Also, it’s winter and I don’t have too much else to do, I’m going to think about it, and then overthink it.
I welcome any more suggestions, opinions, comments!
Thanks again.

 

[Gilmango]

Thanks for your thoughts. I’m going to ponder about this, since I started it today, there’s time.
Also, it’s winter and I don’t have too much else to do, I’m going to think about it, and then overthink it.
I welcome any more suggestions, opinions, comments!
Thanks again.

Like you, I have also done several longer EMs of 4-8 weeks vs. the 2 weeks total FWK now recommends, and I also wondered about the seeds. Love that Matteo has already responded a bunch here with really helpful thoughts.

I'm only responding because I found one possible solution, if you want to EM for the full 8 weeks you usually do but are worried about the seeds. I put the seeds in a separate muslin sack which is way smaller than the 2 skins sacks. That allows me to remove the seeds without removing the skins (and without doing any transfer). So you could either remove seeds after primary before sealing the Fermonster, or remove just the seeds at week 2, but keep going with the skins (that would mean opening the fermonster once, but if you were really worried about the "CO2 blanket" you could put in a teaspoon of sugar at the same time as you removed the seed sack, and the 'blanket' will come right back).

EDIT - or, as is already suggested, you could taste it as the EM goes (bit riskier as you don't want to open it too much, but either with a wine thief or via the tap if you have one), and remove it only if/when it tastes overly tannic.

But so long as you never crush the seeds, sounds like EM on seeds is a newer but pretty low risk thing, and if you somehow get a bit too much tannins, that mainly (I think) makes your wine more age worthy (or age needy is the other side of the coin).

 

[Lynx rufus]

Gilmango,
Going forward, I think that’s the way I’ll do it, bag the seeds separately, and remove them after a couple of weeks.
Since I have already started this batch, and sprinkled the seeds into the must, my thoughts are I may just add a couple weeks to the primary fermentation, for a total of 4 weeks EM.
As Matteo said, I’m not going to be crushing the seeds, and another couple of weeks shouldn’t be enough for them to add a significant amount of tannins.
IF it is tannic, then I’ll park it down in the cellar and let it rest. All while complaining over a glass of Super Tuscan, that turned out fantastic!
Thanks again to everyone for your help! I’m going to go have a look at the Fermonster and get started on my overthinking for today.

 

[Lukaswine]

My Forte Bordeaux is on my door as we speak.

I am preparing my third FWK, the Merlot.

 

[jgmann67]

The Bordeaux blend has an OG of about 1.105, just like the Zin. Big. Fermentation was started Sunday morning and signs of active fermentation are already showing. Smells good, looks good.

 

[Lynx rufus]

The Bordeaux blend has an OG of about 1.105, just like the Zin. Big. Fermentation was started Sunday morning and signs of active fermentation are already showing. Smells good, looks good.

This is one I’m thinking about doing! I’m interested in how it turns out for you.

 

[She’sgonnakillme]

@Matteo_Lahm sent you a private message sir

 

[winemaker81]

I racked my FWK Chardonnay tonight, it was long overdue. The color is the carboy is quite dark:



However, the quality control sample looks VERY good. It's on the dark side of "normal" for a Chardonnay, but it's in the range:



For a 2 month old wine, the nose and taste are quite good. I'm pleased.

My son's Riesling is a bit lighter in color, and also shows great promise.

 

[Bmd2k1]

I racked my FWK Chardonnay tonight, it was long overdue. The color is the carboy is quite dark:

View attachment 83186

However, the quality control sample looks VERY good. It's on the dark side of "normal" for a Chardonnay, but it's in the range:

View attachment 83187

For a 2 month old wine, the nose and taste are quite good. I'm pleased.

My son's Riesling is a bit lighter in color, and also shows great promise.

Wow...difference in color is amazing!

 

[winemaker81]

Wow...difference in color is amazing!

Isn't it?

If we think about it, it's not that surprising. While there is a technical explanation, I visualize it as multiplication. Take a very pale wine in the glass, multiply by the number of glass-widths in a carboy, and you get the darkness as viewed through the carboy. Let's say there are 10 glass-widths in the carboy. With a very pale wine, the differences between the glass and carboy are trivial.

So every bit the wine is darker, the carboy is 10 times darker than the glass. It doesn't take a lot of darkness in the glass for the carboy to look really dark.

Keep in mind my illustration is exactly that -- illustration. But the reality is that as the wine gets darker, the differences between the glass and the carboy change a lot.

 

[sour_grapes]

hile there is a technical explanation,

Yes, Bryan is correct. Cf. Beer–Lambert law - Wikipedia