Finer Wine Kit Finer Wine Kits

[wineview]

How do I get on the list.

 

[X45011]

How do I get on the list.

Register for newsletter at Label Peelers Wine Making and Homebrewing Equipment and Supplies bottom left hand corner.

 

[wineview]

Register for newsletter at Label Peelers Wine Making and Homebrewing Equipment and Supplies bottom left hand corner.

Ahh. Seems I’m already registered.

 

[Brian55]

Ahh. Seems I’m already registered.

Send them an e-mail. I was registered, but wasn't receiving the e-mails. Matt at LP corrected the issue the same day I sent them an e-mail.

 

[3dB]

Nope. Punching down has been practiced for centuries, and it's fine.

LOL. Lack of modern sanitation was practiced for centuries -- that hardly means it's "fine."

Recent research in beer brewing shows noticeable degradation in flavors with even brief exposure to oxygen; the whole reason we "top up" wine in carboys is to minimize O2/surface contact. CO2 doesn't "push air out;" the gases mix immediately. I agree (and I stated) that with continuous and vigorous generation of CO2 early in fermentation, the O2 concentration is quickly diluted. But as fermentation proceeds, CO2 generation slows, and O2 (replenished every time you remove the lid) remains in greater concentrations, and for greater duration. This is physics; I'm not going to debate it.

I shared a tip for maximizing the contact of skins with fermenting wine, which does not require repeatedly opening the lid and allowing oxygen to contact the wine. Readers can do with that tip what they will.

 

[DavesWine]

You can't take ALL the practices that have been done over the centuries and equate them equally. There was a lot unknown about sanitation at the time but that doesn't invalidate that opening the fermenter and punching down skins or stirring is wrong. And also comparing to beer isn't the same either. I brewed beer for two year before starting making wine. It was difficult to adjust to the fact that I exposed the wine to oxygen during fermentation, and even during racking for that matter. You spend a lot of effort trying to keep beer from getting exposed at all to oxygen, but you don't use K-Meta to help with that.

I've been following the directions and practices as talked about here and the wine is turning out great. If I did that with beer it would probably get poured down the drain.

 

[Flidget]

LOL. Lack of modern sanitation was practiced for centuries -- that hardly means it's "fine."

Recent research in beer brewing shows noticeable degradation in flavors with even brief exposure to oxygen; the whole reason we "top up" wine in carboys is to minimize O2/surface contact. CO2 doesn't "push air out;" the gases mix immediately. I agree (and I stated) that with continuous and vigorous generation of CO2 early in fermentation, the O2 concentration is quickly diluted. But as fermentation proceeds, CO2 generation slows, and O2 (replenished every time you remove the lid) remains in greater concentrations, and for greater duration. This is physics; I'm not going to debate it.

I shared a tip for maximizing the contact of skins with fermenting wine, which does not require repeatedly opening the lid and allowing oxygen to contact the wine. Readers can do with that tip what they will.

Interesting, but I guess it needs a split batch test. This seems to start the same sort of religious debate as Hot Side Aeration does in the beer homebrew community. If you don't let o2 in k-meta doesn't need to react with it for removal, but can you keep o2 out end to end with wine? No cap on foam possible with wine. Also interesting is, dosing k-meta to match the o2 level, with nothing left over. Again, does it make a significant difference in wine, like it does in beer.

 

[winemaker81]

Interesting, but I guess it needs a split batch test. This seems to start the same sort of religious debate as Hot Side Aeration does in the beer homebrew community. If you don't let o2 in k-meta doesn't need to react with it for removal, but can you keep o2 out end to end with wine? No cap on foam possible with wine. Also interesting is, dosing k-meta to match the o2 level, with nothing left over. Again, does it make a significant difference in wine, like it does in beer.

Not that we don't have arguments, but this group tends to be more sedate on most matters. Sure, we disagree on many things, but few get flaming pissed, or stay pissed.

Is keeping all O2 out realistic? Yeast uses O2 for reproduction, so fermenting in an open bucket produces a faster and more effective fermentation. After that? While a lot of folks use vacuum pumps, keeping all O2 out requires creating a vacuum in the destination containers at each racking, keeping the wine under vacuum during aging, and creating a vacuum in the bottle during bottles, and keeping a vacuum during corking. Inert gases could be used in some stages of the process, but it's difficult to determine how much an inert gas mixed with air during sparging a container. While possible, it seems that keeping all O2 out requires lab conditions.

An important point is that O2 is not the wine boogeyman that many believe it is. Oxidation is a factor of wine volume vs headspace volume vs time, e.g., a small volume of wine with a large headspace oxidizes more quickly than a large volume of wine with a smaller headspace. I've love to see a study of how much O2 is absorbed by a degassed wine sitting in an open bucket in 20 minutes.

Dosing SO2 to match the O2? It's an interesting idea, but outside of a lab, I have no idea if it could be accomplished.

We must consider that SO2 protects the wine from all contaminants by binding to them and rendering them harmless. It would be necessary to identify all contaminants, and add enough SO2 to address them. Winemaking has many variables we don't even know exist, much less understand.

We do a lot of things on faith -- such as adding 1/4 tsp K-meta per 5/6 US gallons at each racking and at bottling. A member conducted a test last year, and discovered that the rule of thumb results in ~30 ppm free SO2, a common target level. I searched but could not find a reference regarding where the rule came from. My guess is that it resulted from years of practical effort and was simply handed down as "the rule".

Your post is thought provoking. It also made me remember this cartoon:

 

[Flidget]

Not that we don't have arguments, but this group tends to be more sedate on most matters. Sure, we disagree on many things, but few get flaming pissed, or stay pissed.

Is keeping all O2 out realistic? Yeast uses O2 for reproduction, so fermenting in an open bucket produces a faster and more effective fermentation. After that? While a lot of folks use vacuum pumps, keeping all O2 out requires creating a vacuum in the destination containers at each racking, keeping the wine under vacuum during aging, and creating a vacuum in the bottle during bottles, and keeping a vacuum during corking. Inert gases could be used in some stages of the process, but it's difficult to determine how much an inert gas mixed with air during sparging a container. While possible, it seems that keeping all O2 out requires lab conditions.

An important point is that O2 is not the wine boogeyman that many believe it is. Oxidation is a factor of wine volume vs headspace volume vs time, e.g., a small volume of wine with a large headspace oxidizes more quickly than a large volume of wine with a smaller headspace. I've love to see a study of how much O2 is absorbed by a degassed wine sitting in an open bucket in 20 minutes.

Dosing SO2 to match the O2? It's an interesting idea, but outside of a lab, I have no idea if it could be accomplished.

We must consider that SO2 protects the wine from all contaminants by binding to them and rendering them harmless. It would be necessary to identify all contaminants, and add enough SO2 to address them. Winemaking has many variables we don't even know exist, much less understand.

We do a lot of things on faith -- such as adding 1/4 tsp K-meta per 5/6 US gallons at each racking and at bottling. A member conducted a test last year, and discovered that the rule of thumb results in ~30 ppm free SO2, a common target level. I searched but could not find a reference regarding where the rule came from. My guess is that it resulted from years of practical effort and was simply handed down as "the rule".

Your post is thought provoking. It also made me remember this cartoon:

View attachment 90810

Just to drop in briefly on beer brewing and the O2 topic, there may not be much to take away for wine, but it's good background reading if you're ever going to give any sort of low DO a try.

The following is from themodernbrewhouse who are using lowO2 approaches to maximise and maintain flavour for as long as possible.

Dosing guidelines are available for Metabisulfite (NaMeta or KMeta) and the potential residual impact on the liquid chemistry (in Beer), but you need a DO meter as a starting point:

• It takes 5 ppm of metabisulfite to scavenge 1 ppm O2
• 100 ppm NaMeta has potential for 101 ppm SO4
• 100 ppm KMeta has potential for 86ppm SO4
• 100 ppm NaMeta has potential for 24 ppm Na
• 100 ppm KMeta has potential for 35 ppm K

The choice of Metabisulfite (NaMeta or KMeta) is determined on what water chemistry you are pitching for (excuse the pun) for the style of beer being brewed.

This separate video link is a good overview of what the Meta is doing chemically (again in beer but related to binding and yeast activity), nice to see some details of interactions. YouTube Sui Generis Brewing It's also very similar to maturing wine in bottles where O2 ingress is expected.

Continuing with themodernbrewhouse

On the homebrew level as an alternative to pre-boiling water, Yeast scavenging is used to prepare low DO strike water for all grain mashing. Commercial breweries commonly remove O2 from brewing liquor using N2 or CO2 gas stripping columns. Then everybody needs to add O2 back in before pitching the yeast. There are calculators for how much O2 to add back in to ensure a healthy yeast pitch. Might be applicable for wine kits - or not.

It's not uncommon to hear that suppliers of yeast for wine are light years ahead of suppliers of yeast for beer, so that is another huge factor to not be able to find much information about.

 

[wineview]

Instructions for both the FWK Forte kits and Winexpert Private Reserve (which also come with skins) tell you to put the skins in a muslin bag and "punch down" the bag daily for the first ~2 weeks of fermentation. Problem: that oxidizes your wine. In the first week or so, with very vigorous fermentation, it's probably OK, as the volume of CO2 generation will quickly dilute the O2 concentration. But much after a week, opening the bucket to punch down the skins is harming the wine. There is no such thing as a "protective blanket" of CO2 -- gases mix. Even if ongoing CO2 production dilutes the concentration of O2 to, say, 50%, that's still half a headspace of O2 oxidizing the wine.

In searching for something to weight down the skin bag, I fortuitously found "fermentation weights" -- the perfect, if accidental, name! Made for keeping, e.g., cabbage submerged when making sauerkraut, these are glass weights -- easily sanitized, inert, heavy, and easy to clean. I run them through the dishwasher before and after use, and dunk in StarSan prior to adding to the skins bag. They sink the skins below the surface immediately. While I can't actually see what's happening during fermentation, when I pop the lid to rack and degas, the skins are still submerged. I'm pretty sure they stay that way throughout fermentation.

I add any oak chips to the skins in the bag(s), so they're easy to remove. I put grape seeds in a separate muslin bag, to facilitate optional separate removal after ~a week (yes, exposing the wine, but only once, and at a point of still-healthy CO2 production). I'm still not convinced that's necessary; I've lately been leaving the seeds in longer and haven't noticed any bitterness.

https://www.amazon.com/TOPZEA-Ferme...d/dp/B08SM8R3K1/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3TEJTGOCHKDS9

Do you think Wine expert private reserve is as good as Forte FWk?

 

[Gilmango]

Instructions for both the FWK Forte kits and Winexpert Private Reserve (which also come with skins) tell you to put the skins in a muslin bag and "punch down" the bag daily for the first ~2 weeks of fermentation. Problem: that oxidizes your wine. In the first week or so, with very vigorous fermentation, it's probably OK, as the volume of CO2 generation will quickly dilute the O2 concentration. But much after a week, opening the bucket to punch down the skins is harming the wine. There is no such thing as a "protective blanket" of CO2 -- gases mix. Even if ongoing CO2 production dilutes the concentration of O2 to, say, 50%, that's still half a headspace of O2 oxidizing the wine.

In searching for something to weight down the skin bag, I fortuitously found "fermentation weights" -- the perfect, if accidental, name! Made for keeping, e.g., cabbage submerged when making sauerkraut, these are glass weights -- easily sanitized, inert, heavy, and easy to clean. I run them through the dishwasher before and after use, and dunk in StarSan prior to adding to the skins bag. They sink the skins below the surface immediately. While I can't actually see what's happening during fermentation, when I pop the lid to rack and degas, the skins are still submerged. I'm pretty sure they stay that way throughout fermentation.

I add any oak chips to the skins in the bag(s), so they're easy to remove. I put grape seeds in a separate muslin bag, to facilitate optional separate removal after ~a week (yes, exposing the wine, but only once, and at a point of still-healthy CO2 production). I'm still not convinced that's necessary; I've lately been leaving the seeds in longer and haven't noticed any bitterness.

https://www.amazon.com/TOPZEA-Ferme...d/dp/B08SM8R3K1/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3TEJTGOCHKDS9

I just re-read the current FWK instructions for Forte and they do not say what you suggested in your very first sentence: "Instructions for both the FWK Forte kits and Winexpert Private Reserve (which also come with skins) tell you to put the skins in a muslin bag and "punch down" the bag daily for the first ~2 weeks of fermentation." Instructions are here: https://indd.adobe.com/view/6f646554-4d8c-4d2b-a253-02f3b1360b3f

The FWK instructions do say to punch down twice daily once fermentation starts, but they also state that the punching down stops once the SG reaches 1.010, at which point you seal the primary fermenter with an air lock and you do not open it again (so clearly no more punch downs) until day 14, when you transfer it to secondary. (See Step 3 - Fermentation steps 5 and 6 to Step 4 - Secondary Fermentation - Racking, on pages 9 and 10 of the link).

So basically FWK says you only punch down for the first few days of vigorous fermentation when lots of CO2 is produced (and when your primary is generally just covered with a cloth), then you replace the cloth with a sealed lid and airlock before it is done fermenting, before there is an oxidation risk. Basically they are suggesting a short extended maceration in that extra week or so sealed in the primary (and many of us EM for longer).

I do like the fermentation weights concept though. I have thought of that more for dry hopping beers but could be great for wine skins/oak/seeds/fruit packs too.

 

[Brant]

I like the idea of keeping the skins submerged and "doing their thing" during fermentation and post (especially on a long extended maceration). Theoretically there may be some benefit as more skin surface area stays in contact with the wine which might increase potential for extraction of the "good stuff".

As we all know, punching down in the first stage of ferment introduces O2 to keep the yeast healthy and reproducing so I think as long as O2 is introduced till approximately 1.01 SG, locking down after this point with the skins fully submerged sounds like a good idea worthy of a trial.

 

[Bmd2k1]

I just re-read the current FWK instructions for Forte and they do not say what you suggested in your very first sentence: "Instructions for both the FWK Forte kits and Winexpert Private Reserve (which also come with skins) tell you to put the skins in a muslin bag and "punch down" the bag daily for the first ~2 weeks of fermentation." Instructions are here: https://indd.adobe.com/view/6f646554-4d8c-4d2b-a253-02f3b1360b3f

The FWK instructions do say to punch down twice daily once fermentation starts, but they also state that the punching down stops once the SG reaches 1.010, at which point you seal the primary fermenter with an air lock and you do not open it again (so clearly no more punch downs) until day 14, when you transfer it to secondary. (See Step 3 - Fermentation steps 5 and 6 to Step 4 - Secondary Fermentation - Racking, on pages 9 and 10 of the link).

So basically FWK says you only punch down for the first few days of vigorous fermentation when lots of CO2 is produced (and when your primary is generally just covered with a cloth), then you replace the cloth with a sealed lid and airlock before it is done fermenting, before there is an oxidation risk. Basically they are suggesting a short extended maceration in that extra week or so sealed in the primary (and many of us EM for longer).

I do like the fermentation weights concept though. I have thought of that more for dry hopping beers but could be great for wine skins/oak/seeds/fruit packs too.

I use stainless dry hopping tubes for my skins/stems/seeds --- Works Great!

Cheers!

 

[Matt_Pruszynski]

@Matteo_Lahm and @Matt_Pruszynski

I really enjoyed the year in review video from 2021. Wondering if you’ll do something similar to introduce this weekend year’s new products.

Yes, we are planning on doing a similar video late this year on the new Finer Wine Kits that are currently in R & D when @Matteo_Lahm travels back from Italy. I am very much looking forward to it though I might have to get another Uber ride home after drinking all of that wine. If you couldn't tell from the video, we very much enjoyed ourselves. Two Italians sitting around drinking wine together and critiquing it is a tough job. LOL.

 

[3dB]

I just re-read the current FWK instructions for Forte

You're right. Those instructions changed relatively recently (like within the past year -- I think when the Forte line came out with skins included?) -- they formerly said (like the Winexpert still does) to punch down daily (or more) throughout fermentation. The current instructions include an SG cut-off, but that requires taking the reading. Not only is it an added pain (sanitation & clean-up), but the wine is sitting exposed the whole while.

I just decided it's easier to submerge the skins at the outset, and leave the bucket sealed until rack/degas.

 

[3dB]

Do you think Wine expert private reserve is as good as Forte FWk?

I'll have an answer in a few months.

This is my first batch of WE-PR. I only ordered it because FW couldn't ship a Bordeaux kit now, and I'm on a deadline for a wedding.

 

[silverbullet07]

I thought there was advantage to stirring the must two times daily to get oxygen in to help the yeast until it slows around 1.020. During that time the grape skins are getting submerged.

 

[Brant]

You're right. Those instructions changed relatively recently (like within the past year -- I think when the Forte line came out with skins included?) -- they formerly said (like the Winexpert still does) to punch down daily (or more) throughout fermentation. The current instructions include an SG cut-off, but that requires taking the reading. Not only is it an added pain (sanitation & clean-up), but the wine is sitting exposed the whole while.

I just decided it's easier to submerge the skins at the outset, and leave the bucket sealed until rack/degas.

I've not experienced it first hand but my understanding is that if the yeast is stressed from a lack of 02, it can cause off-flavors and smell. Maybe H2S? Not positive. Someone else can comment with more knowledge on the matter.

I think the risk of suffocating the yeast is greater than the risk of O2 degradation in the first week during ferment. Besides that, each FWK I've done gets below 1.00 in the first 4 days and the C02 is ripping so I'm confident that 02 is being rapidly displaced. I think locking down after that point makes sense.

 

[Brant]

Not only is it an added pain (sanitation & clean-up), but the wine is sitting exposed the whole while.

The biggest pain I've found is the fact that the 8 gal ferment bucket wants to overflow with foam. I need another gallon or two of headspace for FWKs.

I think taking the SG reading is pretty simple. I just spray my hydrometer with NaMeta sterilizing solution and stick in directly into the fermenter. It's quick and easy.

 

[winemaker81]

I thought there was advantage to stirring the must two times daily to get oxygen in to help the yeast until it slows around 1.020. During that time the grape skins are getting submerged.

Stirring or punching down has numerous purposes. Getting O2 into the must is one, as it contributes to yeast reproduction and a healthy ferment.

Stirring also prevents any solids on the surface from drying out and becoming a place for microbial life to grow. While more common for red wines and country wines due to the large proportion of solids, it can be a problem for whites and country wines made from juice or tea.

Punching down red pomace not only keeps it from drying out -- it improves extraction from the pulp. Submerging bags of pulp is not a bad idea, but for best extraction, it needs to be manipulated.

Search on "wine why punch down skins" -- you can find more detailed information.

I've not experienced it first hand but my understanding is that if the yeast is stressed from a lack of 02, it can cause off-flavors and smell. Maybe H2S? Not positive. Someone else can comment with more knowledge on the matter.

I have not read anything about lack of O2 causing H2S -- the papers I've read focused on lack of nutrients, and exposure to gross lees.

However, helping the initial colony grow quickly prevents other organisms from achieving a critical mass, so using a good starter, adding proper nutrient, and stirring/punching down contribute to colony growth and health.

Remember that wine is a preservative system due to the high ABV and low pH. A quicker growing colony increases the ABV sooner, making the wine less hospitable to harmful microbial life.