First chromatography test kit

[Smok1]

Can someone help me pick out what i need, whats the deal with the glass jar? I can buy a beginner kit for $40, a winemakers kit for $80 or just the glass jar for $90?

 

[ibglowin]

The winery kit has more of everything. More solvent, more standards, more sheets of paper more glass tubes to place the sample on the paper. The basic kit has about 50% less of each of those. I would get the basic kit unless you have like 300 gallons of wine to test.

 

[Boatboy24]

The basic kit has all you need. After a few tests, I stopped using the standards, so you probably don't need a ton of that. I'm still on the paper that came with my original kit a few years ago. Only thing I've gone through is the solvent, which can be easily reordered when necessary.

Edit: the basic kit does NOT have the standards. But it does come with malic acid and tartaric acid (I have no idea why you need these)

Is this the only supplier you can use?

 

[Smok1]

The basic kit has all you need. After a few tests, I stopped using the standards, so you probably don't need a ton of that. I'm still on the paper that came with my original kit a few years ago. Only thing I've gone through is the solvent, which can be easily reordered when necessary.

Edit: the basic kit does NOT have the standards. But it does come with malic acid and tartaric acid (I have no idea why you need these)

Is this the only supplier you can use?

You said after the first few kits you stopped using the standards, what do you mean by that? Yes its the only supplier in western canada i can find

 

[MariusTitulescu]

Go with the basic kit. No need to complicate stuff.

 

[ibglowin]

I am a chemist and I still use the standards. I don't use tartaric as that is not what we are monitoring here. I do use the malic and the lactic. That way you have a visual reference to look at to see what a "pure" spot should look like and how high it is in comparison to your wine samples (which can quite often look like a big old smear). Standards help take the guess work out of completion and make it easier IMHO to gauge how far along you are in the conversion process. YMMV

 

[Smok1]

Ok thanks for the advise guys, ive decided to piece the kit together instead of buying the kit, standards are $5 each, ill pick up 100 cap tubes, 10 paper and the solvent and ill get my wife to get a glass jar from work. The kits come with a plastic jar

 

[Boatboy24]

You said after the first few kits you stopped using the standards, what do you mean by that? Yes its the only supplier in western canada i can find

The wine you test will produce up to 3 dots above it on the paper, showing the presences of lactic, malic and tartaric acids. The standards will show 'where' on the paper this presence is shown. Lactic is always on top, malic in the middle and tartaric on the bottom. After you've done a few tests, and you are comfortable reading the results, you no longer need the standards to 'interpret' for you. In the sample attached, the standards are on the left and wine samples on the right. In that example, all 3 wines are showing tartaric and malic acids, with light lactic acid. As MLF completes, the dot on the malic line will disappear and the lactic will be more prominent.

 

[berrycrush]

I might not get your own jar with the right size, it could end up with using more solutions.

 

[ibglowin]

FYI: Plastic works just fine and it what 99% of us are using. It needs to be a BIG jar as you are inserting an 8x10 piece of paper into the jar on it's side. It all has to fit and you have to be able to put the lid on and seal it back up.

The kits come with a plastic jar

 

[Smok1]

Good point, ill buy the kit.

 

[Ajmassa]

The glass jar is just another breakable tool. And doesn't make the process any better or worse. My kit came with plastic jar and I think I'm better off with it. Not that glass is bad, but plastic works just as good.

 

[Johnd]

Like Mike, I too, still use the standards. Seems like you might not know what is meant by the standards, so I'll attempt to explain.

First, how paper chromatography works, in layman terms. You put a dot of wine 1" from the bottom of the chromo paper, more than one wine if you need to. Paper is rolled into a circle, stapled to hold the shape, and set into the jar which has the solvent in it. Wine dots are on the bottom. As the solvent rises up, it pulls the acids up with it, they have different properties and therefore drop out of the rising solvent at different heights. Tartaric drops out first (lowest), malic drops out second (middle), lactic drops out last (top). Once the paper is removed from the jar and allowed to dry, paper turns light blue, but the acid spots turn yellow. You can then see what acids are present in your wine.

The "standards" refer to each type of acid, tartaric, malic, and lactic. In many test kits, you are furnished with a small jar of each kind of acid, you put one drop of each in its own column, along with your wine dots in their columns. Once the paper is dried, above the tartaric acid, there will only be one yellow acid dot, same for above the malic and lactic spots. You can then compare the acid spots above your wine dots to the ones above the "acid standard" spots, confirming their presence, absence, and to some extent, concentration.

Look at the attached photo. The horizontal pencil line is 1" off the bottom of the paper, each tick mark along the line is where the liquid dot was applied. The T is where the tartaric acid standard was deposited, M - the malic, L - the lactic, Chard 6g - the Chardonnay in the 6 gallon carboy, Chard 3 g- the 3 gallon carboy, Chard 1/2g - the 1/2 gallon jug.

Note the bright yellow spot above the T, about 1/3 of the way up the page, that's the Tartaric standard spot, that's how high Tartaric acid rose in my test. All spots above the Chards that are in line with it are tartaric acid in my wine. The same hold true for the Malic, as well as the lactic acid. In this test, you'll not that there is no malic spot above the Chards, which told me that all of the malic acid was gone, and hence, MLF was complete.

Once you run these tests a bunch of times, you'll come to the realization that the standard spots are always in the same place, T on the bottom, M in the middle, L on the top, that's why Jim says he doesn't bother running the standards. Personally, I still do them, as it lets me know that my test ran properly. Your choice.

If you already know all of this, I apologize for the long post, if you didn't know it, hopefully you or someone else will find it useful.............

 

[Smok1]

Like Mike, I too, still use the standards. Seems like you might not know what is meant by the standards, so I'll attempt to explain.

First, how paper chromatography works, in layman terms. You put a dot of wine 1" from the bottom of the chromo paper, more than one wine if you need to. Paper is rolled into a circle, stapled to hold the shape, and set into the jar which has the solvent in it. Wine dots are on the bottom. As the solvent rises up, it pulls the acids up with it, they have different properties and therefore drop out of the rising solvent at different heights. Tartaric drops out first (lowest), malic drops out second (middle), lactic drops out last (top). Once the paper is removed from the jar and allowed to dry, paper turns light blue, but the acid spots turn yellow. You can then see what acids are present in your wine.

The "standards" refer to each type of acid, tartaric, malic, and lactic. In many test kits, you are furnished with a small jar of each kind of acid, you put one drop of each in its own column, along with your wine dots in their columns. Once the paper is dried, above the tartaric acid, there will only be one yellow acid dot, same for above the malic and lactic spots. You can then compare the acid spots above your wine dots to the ones above the "acid standard" spots, confirming their presence, absence, and to some extent, concentration.

Look at the attached photo. The horizontal pencil line is 1" off the bottom of the paper, each tick mark along the line is where the liquid dot was applied. The T is where the tartaric acid standard was deposited, M - the malic, L - the lactic, Chard 6g - the Chardonnay in the 6 gallon carboy, Chard 3 g- the 3 gallon carboy, Chard 1/2g - the 1/2 gallon jug.

Note the bright yellow spot above the T, about 1/3 of the way up the page, that's the Tartaric standard spot, that's how high Tartaric acid rose in my test. All spots above the Chards that are in line with it are tartaric acid in my wine. The same hold true for the Malic, as well as the lactic acid. In this test, you'll not that there is no malic spot above the Chards, which told me that all of the malic acid was gone, and hence, MLF was complete.

Once you run these tests a bunch of times, you'll come to the realization that the standard spots are always in the same place, T on the bottom, M in the middle, L on the top, that's why Jim says he doesn't bother running the standards. Personally, I still do them, as it lets me know that my test ran properly. Your choice.

If you already know all of this, I apologize for the long post, if you didn't know it, hopefully you or someone else will find it useful.............

So is there a top and bottom to the paper? Does it matter which edge of the paper i draw my 1" line? I guess im wondering what makes the yellow dot on the tartric acid line ( first line up) and os there something in the paper that makes the malic acid drop out second and the lactic drop out third? Or is the paper uniform and i can use any edge as my bottom edge? Sorry for the noob questions but this is my first MLF and i want to get it right. And one more thing not related to this thread but i dont want to start a new thread for another noob question, Opti-Malo, the smallest quantity i can buy from my supplier is 1kg, i know this is way too much, is there a shelf life/expirey date for this product? If so how long will it last? Will i get 2 seasons at least from it? Should it be stored room temp? Freezer? Fridge?

 

[Kraffty]

Is there a reason you can't just buy the paper and solvent? After reading this and the instructions with the kit it seems like you could just buy some slim straws, cloths pins and salvage a plastic or glass 1/2 gal or Gallon wide mouth container and use them instead?
Mike

 

[Smok1]

Yep i can buy all seperatley, what im thinking is just buying the cheap kit and then just buying the soltions for malic acid and lactic acid seperatly, that will be $60, that will get me everything i need for 5 tests which should be good for thos year, then next year i just need to buy more paper. Just trying to pinch the pennies now because my wife gave me a bit of a hard time about how much im buying, this is my first year trying real grapes, so basically this month ive bought a crusher, a wine press, the AIO wine pump, new hydrometer, So2 test kit, TA test kit, plus the nutrients and additives (goferm, fermaid, mlf bacteria, ph up and down stuff) all adds up pretty quick, we both enjoy our wine so i told her its a one time investment for the wine press, crusher, ect. So now basically i MUST create a good finished wine haha. So just wanna make sure i do everything right. Im getting 3 lugs each of syrah and reisling from california, should arrive within a couple weeks i imagine, and we found a local vineyard that im taking my wife and kids out to go pick 6 lugs of foch and 3 lugs of kerner to get the whole experience with them from the feild to the crusher wine making experience. Brix is 24 on the foch right now so we will be picking shortly. Just trying to get all my ducks in a row, everything setup, cleaned, sanitized, so that when the grapes start coming in everything goes smooth.

 

[Johnd]

So is there a top and bottom to the paper? Does it matter which edge of the paper i draw my 1" line? I guess im wondering what makes the yellow dot on the tartric acid line ( first line up) and os there something in the paper that makes the malic acid drop out second and the lactic drop out third? Or is the paper uniform and i can use any edge as my bottom edge? Sorry for the noob questions but this is my first MLF and i want to get it right. And one more thing not related to this thread but i dont want to start a new thread for another noob question, Opti-Malo, the smallest quantity i can buy from my supplier is 1kg, i know this is way too much, is there a shelf life/expirey date for this product? If so how long will it last? Will i get 2 seasons at least from it? Should it be stored room temp? Freezer? Fridge?

You decide top and bottom, front and back, the paper doesn't care.

The acid on the pencil line just didn't get drawn up with the solvent as it rose.

Nothing in the paper causes the acids to drop out at different times, the properties of the acids are responsible. Just believe that tartaric is heaviest, lactic lightest, malic in between, they respond to gravity.

I don't know the shelf life of OptiMalo, but mine has been through 2 seasons, I keep it in the freezer in a vacuum sealed bag between uses.

 

[Smok1]

You decide top and bottom, front and back, the paper doesn't care.

The acid on the pencil line just didn't get drawn up with the solvent as it rose.

Nothing in the paper causes the acids to drop out at different times, the properties of the acids are responsible. Just believe that tartaric is heaviest, lactic lightest, malic in between, they respond to gravity.

I don't know the shelf life of OptiMalo, but mine has been through 2 seasons, I keep it in the freezer in a vacuum sealed bag between uses.

Thanks johnd

 

[Tony Rose]

I'm not sure if you are still active, but THANKS for the full explanation of why the heck my supplier shipped me dry malic and lactic-cheap bas%ards.
If they always line up, lower middle and upper then I don't really need the standards...