French Oak vs. Eastern European Oak

[Siwash]

Well we all mostly live in North America abs yet we prefer foods, wines, even customs that are not "american" whatever that is... wine itself isn't american. It was brought to this continent by Europeans. And wine consumption was low in the USA until the post war years.

 

[balatonwine]

wine itself isn't american.

If you want to take that tack, actually most "Americans" are not American either (really European, Asian, African, etc).

So you can see that entirely misses the point......

Let us talk about modern American wine options: as in current and future wine making possibilities. Not the past.

 

[cmason1957]

For what is worth the for our five commercial winemakers I know use both French and American oak. They each bring their own tastes to the wine.

 

[balatonwine]

This video of traditional cooperage wine barrel making in Portugal. They are using oak imported from the USA. The entire video is great to watch. But I am inserting it here at the point where it says they are using wood imported from the USA:

 

[winemaker81]

@balatonwine, thanks for posting the video. It was fascinating to watch. I want one of his barrels!! [No, I'm not joking!]

This really makes me appreciate the effort and skill that goes into a barrel.

On topic, I'm still experimenting with oak varieties. So far I'm liking American oak for fermentation, as it provides a basic fruitiness. For aging, I'm leaning towards Hungarian. An interesting experiment would be to make 2 batches of wine -- one with American for fermentation and Hungarian for aging, and reverse that for the second batch.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

For what is worth the for our five commercial winemakers I know use both French and American oak. They each bring their own tastes to the wine.

I have never used American oak in winemaking, Only French oak and thats how its been at the wineries I have worked at. I have always been taught that French oak is generally just superior and none of the winemakers ive studied under have had high opinions of American oak barrels.

 

[tullamore]

i have all 3 - depending on what i'm making
example - all my italian wines go in Hungarian barrels -
my zins and petit sirah, spanish varietals tend to do better in american oak - sometimes i throw in a cab as well
Bordeaux blends, chards go in french oak
there is no right or wrong answer -
if a wine is made properly it will do well in any of the 3 oaks - and all with 3 different taste profiles

 

[Nebbiolo020]

i have all 3 - depending on what i'm making
example - all my italian wines go in Hungarian barrels -
my zins and petit sirah, spanish varietals tend to do better in american oak - sometimes i throw in a cab as well
Bordeaux blends, chards go in french oak
there is no right or wrong answer -
if a wine is made properly it will do well in any of the 3 oaks - and all with 3 different taste profiles

I use French oak in my Zinfandel, tend to prefer medium toast.

I just like the characteristics it adds.

 

[sour_grapes]

I use French oak in my Zinfandel, tend to prefer medium toast.

I just like the characteristics it adds.

But, if I am following your comments correctly, you have never actually compared it to American oak. Is that correct, or did I miss something?

 

[Nebbiolo020]

But, if I am following your comments correctly, you have never actually compared it to American oak. Is that correct, or did I miss something?

I have personally used French oak only but I worked at a winery that used American oak for Zinfandel but it wasn’t my choice so whilst I’ve not personally used American oak I’ve had wines for comparison.

 

[sour_grapes]

I have personally used French oak only but I worked at a winery that used American oak for Zinfandel but it wasn’t my choice so whilst I’ve not personally used American oak I’ve had wines for comparison.

Okay, great. Good to know. It was this that threw me:

I have never used American oak in winemaking, Only French oak and thats how its been at the wineries I have worked at.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Okay, great. Good to know. It was this that threw me:

Yeah, that was the exception, but on all the wines I’ve been responsible for I just like French oak and I’ve tested some Hungarian oak.

my favorite barrel maker is Seguin Moreau.

 

[balatonwine]

I have always been taught that French oak is generally just superior

If one wants to make a wine like a French wine, this may be true. I may even agree.

But French wine styles are only one option in making wine. They may be common and economically marketable, but who is to say they are really "superior" since wine is often a matter of personal taste.

So maybe generically calling French oak superior, for all wine varieties, may be a bit over rated and simply an opinion. Maybe "superior" simply means "what I expect". And if so, maybe an opinion that may limit experimentation and exploring options that may lead to amazing results which some other people may prefer. As always, always IMHO (in my humble opinon). Hope this helps.

 

[tullamore]

If one wants to make a wine like a French wine, this may be true. I may even agree.

But French wine styles are only one option in making wine. They may be common and economically marketable, but who is to say they are really "superior" since wine is often a matter of personal taste.

So maybe generically calling French oak superior, for all wine varieties, may be a bit over rated and simply an opinion. Maybe "superior" simply means "what I expect". And if so, maybe an opinion that may limit experimentation and exploring options that may lead to amazing results which some other people may prefer. As always, always IMHO (in my humble opinon). Hope this helps.

totally totally agree - its all about personal taste - this debate about what oak to use is old and never gets resolved - there is no right or wrong
in my wine group three of us will make the same blend - all 3 are oaked separate in American, french and hungarian
after 1 year we all share the 3 different wines - each oak brings something different to the table - this is the fun part about wine making - trying different things
one likes this one a little more than the other , etc..... the beauty part of this is i have the luxury of all 3 different types of oak barrels
this i will share a little tidbit - -living in ontario Canada- and knowing a wine barrel distributor - says American oak is used more than what people know -

 

[winemanden]

Thanks for such details. Appreciated. Which is basically what I said: The oak will create different wines. If you like that wine or not is a personal issue.

Rant: But again, still I wonder, why an American wine maker would not want to create an American wine? Rather than a European "like" wine. I understand the market pressure to make every wine taste like it came from France... but why should that be? Maybe time to move away from over powerful "influencers" in the industry (dare I name names?). Great things are being done with creative ideas in distilled beverages and beers, yet the wine makers still cling to trying to make their wine taste like some French winery. To my way of thinking, that is maybe a little bit silly. Of course I often operate outside the norm. But I have done well for myself over the years seeing around curves. Take that for what it is worth. Hope this helps.

Side note: Wine industry needs to change:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/07/dining/drinks/wine-millennials.html

It's the 'MARKET'! When you've got thousands of Dollars tied up in a vintage, you've got to sell it. Sometimes you've got to set you're own tastes aside just to survive. With all that money and future at stake, it takes a brave man to be different.

 

[balatonwine]

It's the 'MARKET'! When you've got thousands of Dollars tied up in a vintage, you've got to sell it. Sometimes you've got to set you're own tastes aside just to survive. With all that money and future at stake, it takes a brave man to be different.

Yes, I know it is the market. Thought it was pretty obvious when I said I "understand the market pressure".

My rant was more pontificating about entrepreneur like myself who take on personal risk, versus those that are risk avoidance. So you basically only repeated what I said.

So what I was saying is those that are willing to risk might find or create marvelous things. Not simply maintaining the status quo. Most of your life is surrounded by things created by entrepreneurs who took personal risks for their ideas. What you call "brave men" (and women) really define and drive the world. Not risk avoiders. But of course I felt that was all fairly obvious. And since contained in a defined "rant" I hope everyone can take that for what it is worth: My opinion (and to some my opinion my be worth less than dirt, which is okay, as that is their opinion). But I hardly need education. Hope this helps.

 

[tullamore]

Yes, I know it is the market. Thought it was pretty obvious when I said I "understand the market pressure".

My rant was more pontificating about entrepreneur like myself who take on personal risk, versus those that are risk avoidance. So you basically only repeated what I said.

So what I was saying is those that are willing to risk might find or create marvelous things. Not simply maintaining the status quo. Most of your life is surrounded by things created by entrepreneurs who took personal risks for their ideas. What you call "brave men" (and women) really define and drive the world. Not risk avoiders. But of course I felt that was all fairly obvious. And since contained in a defined "rant" I hope everyone can take that for what it is worth: My opinion (and to some my opinion my be worth less than dirt, which is okay, as that is their opinion). But I hardly need education. Hope this helps.

not many people think outside the box - or roll the dice - they have many opinions and there are too many monday morning quarterbacks - which s fine - everyone has the right to voice their opinions
this is we are who we are - ENTREPRENEURS!! - we take the risks and the rewards and the lumps!!
there's no can't in our world - But - we put smiles upon peoples faces!!!!!!
so Balatonewine i salute u - from one risk taker to another!!!!!!!!

 

[Gilmango]

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[Jim Welch]

This video of traditional cooperage wine barrel making in Portugal. They are using oak imported from the USA. The entire video is great to watch. But I am inserting it here at the point where it says they are using wood imported from the USA:

that is an awesome video!