WineXpert Fast vs. Slow fermentation

[Rocky]

How many gallons was your primary? A gallon of wine base is a bit pricey.

That primary had two kits plus the gallon of wine base plus an extra 2.5 gallons of water, so about 16 or so gallons in total. The container is a 22 gallon Brute (food grade). I just checked the price at Label Peelers and the fruit base is now $31.77 (40% off sale). At Home Brew Ohio it is $54.99. Recall that I bought these kits in 2021 or 2022, at which time I bought the wine base. I just looked back at my order and I paid $44.99 for the wine base.

$44.99

1 × Vintners Best Fruit Wine Base - Blackberry​

I must have been a lot richer then!

 

[wineview]

That primary had two kits plus the gallon of wine base plus an extra 2.5 gallons of water, so about 16 or so gallons in total. The container is a 22 gallon Brute (food grade). I just checked the price at Label Peelers and the fruit base is now $31.77 (40% off sale). At Home Brew Ohio it is $54.99. Recall that I bought these kits in 2021 or 2022, at which time I bought the wine base. I just looked back at my order and I paid $44.99 for the wine base.

$44.99

1 × Vintners Best Fruit Wine Base - Blackberry​

I must have been a lot richer then!

Interesting that you bought the base four years ago. I did a quick google search and saw prices in the $70 range. So for a six gallon batch you would not use more than half gallon of wine base. In your opinion what does the base add to the wine.

 

[Rocky]

Interesting that you bought the base four years ago. I did a quick google search and saw prices in the $70 range. So for a six gallon batch you would not use more than half gallon of wine base. In your opinion what does the base add to the wine.

I am not sure we are talking about the same product. The instructions on the base I bought said to add 4 gallons of water to the base to yield 5 gallons of wine with an ABV of about 10%.

To wit: "A blend of juice concentrates, corn syrup, citric acid and natural flavor designed to make a fermentable base for blackberry wine blend at 18.9 Brix. Vintner's Best Fruit Wine Bases All natural and made with real fruit juice, our fruit wine bases are crafted from the same formulations used by commercial wineries. Vintner's Best Fruit Wine Bases make five gallons of high quality fruit wine at 10% ABV. Extremely easy and convenient to make, requiring no pH adjustments and no acid adjustments. Made from all natural fruit juice and do not need to be strained or placed into any sort of mesh bag! Simply dilute one gallon of Vintner's Best Fruit Wine Base with four gallons of water, pitch a fruit wine yeast of your choice and stir! Vintner's Best Fruit Wine Bases are a superior replacement for any fruit wine base on the market."

It is available today here in Ohio from at least two suppliers, Label Peelers in Ravenna, Ohio, on sale for $31.77 (regular price is $52.95) and from Home Brew Ohio in Sandusky, Ohio for $54.77.

As regards, what does it add, I feel it accentuates a background flavor of Blackberries in the wine.

 

[BPL]

high temp increases nutrient demand and increases the risk of off flavors / yeast stress.

I agree with the risk of off flavors at elevated temperatures.

Please explain the, "high temp increases nutrient demand" part. How does that work?

 

[wineview]

I used to ferment at 70-72F. This year I boosted to 78-80F to extract more from the skins. So far have not noticed any off flavors.

 

[BPL]

I used a combination of D47 and EC1118 yeast in the reds

I suggest looking up the competitive factors of yeasts. Then look up "killer yeasts".

 

[Tripled92]

I agree with the risk of off flavors at elevated temperatures.

Please explain the, "high temp increases nutrient demand" part. How does that work?

Higher temperature makes the yeast go through fermentation faster. So it needs more nutrients in order to sustain that pace.

 

[BPL]

Higher temperature makes the yeast go through fermentation faster. So it needs more nutrients in order to sustain that pace.

Hmm. Ok, I see your reasoning. A follow up question...If X amount of energy (nutrient) is required to ferment Y amount of sugar, to produce a Z amount of alcohol, how does adding more energy (nutrient) balance out the equation? That would be like stopping at a gas station with a half tank of gas, and filling your car up all the way to travel 20 miles.

I'm all in, but are there any case studies or papers written to support the theory?

 

[Tripled92]

Hmm. Ok, I see your reasoning. A follow up question...If X amount of energy (nutrient) is required to ferment Y amount of sugar, to produce a Z amount of alcohol, how does adding more energy (nutrient) balance out the equation? That would be like stopping at a gas station with a half tank of gas, and filling your car up all the way to travel 20 miles.

I'm all in, but are there any case studies or papers written to support the theory?

You are asking great questions!

There are different type of nutrients. So to answer your question, you are more talking about fermaid K instead of fermaid O.
Let me break this down Wine kits already come adjusted with enough YAN to complete the fermentation process, so we use what is called fermaid O (vitamins and minerals) to keep the yeast happy to continue to eat, so it doesn’t stress its self.
Think of it like a person running to point A to point B. Said person could make it to point A to point B without water but will be tired in the end and sore. But if we give said person water during the process he will be in better shape when he reaches point B.

The example you gave is more so referring to fermaid K which contains DAP. So if you are working with grape juice that is insufficient in YAN, it won’t ferment at all or really struggle through the process. That’s when you add fermaid K. Which is closer to the example you were giving and using that you want to monitor the limits you are adding because like you said no reason to add a full tank when going 20 miles.

Fermaid O works a lot different so in theory you could add unlimited fermaid o and be fine because it works different.

Look up the terms that i had in what i wrote and it will bring up article and stuff for you to read! Any other questions just let me know

 

[Rotundifolia]

The higher temperatures will increase the tannins and color. Some level of OH is needed to get tannins. In the early part of fermentation, the skin tannins will be extracted. Later during fermentation, the seed (i.e. bitter) tannins will be captured. So if you want more color and good tannins, then I recommend higher temps early on and then lower temps later on. The you tube link goes into more detail and the use and timing of sacrificial tannins. It is a presentation from a vendor so they are trying to sell thier products, but there is good information none the less.

 

[BPL]

You are asking great questions!

There are different type of nutrients. So to answer your question, you are more talking about fermaid K instead of fermaid O.
Let me break this down Wine kits already come adjusted with enough YAN to complete the fermentation process, so we use what is called fermaid O (vitamins and minerals) to keep the yeast happy to continue to eat, so it doesn’t stress its self.
Think of it like a person running to point A to point B. Said person could make it to point A to point B without water but will be tired in the end and sore. But if we give said person water during the process he will be in better shape when he reaches point B.

The example you gave is more so referring to fermaid K which contains DAP. So if you are working with grape juice that is insufficient in YAN, it won’t ferment at all or really struggle through the process. That’s when you add fermaid K. Which is closer to the example you were giving and using that you want to monitor the limits you are adding because like you said no reason to add a full tank when going 20 miles.

Fermaid O works a lot different so in theory you could add unlimited fermaid o and be fine because it works different.

Look up the terms that i had in what i wrote and it will bring up article and stuff for you to read! Any other questions just let me know

So, no case studies or papers available? It's interesting that none of the YAN calculators I have seen (at least 5) include nutrient compensation for temperatures.

 

[Tripled92]

So, no case studies or papers available? It's interesting that none of the YAN calculators I have seen (at least 5) include nutrient compensation for temperatures.

https://www.bio-conferences.org/art...conf_oiv2022_02034/bioconf_oiv2022_02034.html

Here is one. You can look up “scholarly articles on how fermentation is affected by temperature” and like 10 plus papers come up.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Yeast growth isn’t a X Y Z function. There are fifth and probably ninety factors too and they modify the X.

As I got caught in this rabbit hole, I found the following diagram and study. Thank you @Raptor99 for this information. Immensely helpful! I took the information from the study you cited and added the phases to the top of the below study. I believe that they are counting cells as being present, even if not alive, which is why the death phase does not show a decline in cell numbers.

View attachment 96883


Main phases of wine fermentation. Evolution of the main fermentation parameters during wine fermentation on a synthetic medium containing 200 g/L-1 glucose/fructose and 330 mg/L-1 assimilable nitrogen, with the commercial wine strain EC1118 at 24°C. Dark blue: fermentation rate; light blue: ethanol; red: cell number; green: nitrogen; and purple: sugars.

Marsit, Souhir & Dequin, Sylvie. (2015). Diversity and adaptive evolution of Saccharomyces wine yeast: A review. FEMS yeast research. 15. 10.1093/femsyr/fov067.

David is pointing out nutrient recycling. Basically if the temp is high all nitrogen and vitamin are needed at once. If the rate is slower some yeast are senile and their vitamin and nitrogen can be recycled.

...If X amount of energy (nutrient) is required to ferment Y amount of sugar, to produce a Z amount of alcohol, how does adding more energy (nutrient) balance out the equation? . . . . but are there any case studies or papers written to support the theory?

In general, we look at starting sugar and say that nitrogen and oxygen consumption are not critical pas 1/3 sugar consumption.

 

[BPL]

In general, we look at starting sugar and say that nitrogen and oxygen consumption are not critical pas 1/3 sugar consumption.

With all respect, I disagree. Nitrogen has a very large impact on wine fermentation past 1/3 sugar depletion. Not critical? That is a definite maybe.

I down loaded the paper and read the complete text. The chart listed " View attachment 96883 " leaves out some critical information on the two Y axis on the right and left.

For discussion and contextual purposes, I copied the entire chart and annotated red cross hairs at 1/3 sugar depletion.The chart distinctly shows roughly 25% of remaining Nitrogen that is directly related to approximately 1/2 cellular population growth.

Also the purple curve (looks similar to a shark's tooth) between the ~25 hour mark to ~40 hour mark is nearly 25% of the production of CO2. Nitrogen is directly responsible for CO2 production.

The question becomes, where does the remaining CO2 come from past the ~40 hour mark, if not generated by N2? (no answer is needed)

 

[HMH]

With all respect, I disagree. Nitrogen has a very large impact on wine fermentation past 1/3 sugar depletion. Not critical? That is a definite maybe.

I down loaded the paper and read the complete text. The chart listed " View attachment 96883 " leaves out some critical information on the two Y axis on the right and left.

For discussion and contextual purposes, I copied the entire chart and annotated red cross hairs at 1/3 sugar depletion.The chart distinctly shows roughly 25% of remaining Nitrogen that is directly related to approximately 1/2 cellular population growth.

Also the purple curve (looks similar to a shark's tooth) between the ~25 hour mark to ~40 hour mark is nearly 25% of the production of CO2. Nitrogen is directly responsible for CO2 production.

The question becomes, where does the remaining CO2 come from past the ~40 hour mark, if not generated by N2? (no answer is needed)

The chart, specifically Nitrogen, represents what is in the must and not what is in the yeast cells.

 

[winemaker81]

So, is Lallemand stating facts based on their years of research, or starting a rumor on a fictitious product?

It comes down to: who do we trust?

I'm an IT guy with nearly 40 years of industrial experience, wearing all type of positional hats. This includes working with a lot of folks in the CxO sphere, most of whom are idiots. Jobs go to those who want them, not those who are qualified.

That said, I look at promotional material, and question anything posted by PR, not the folks that do the real work.

To quote Bryan, "I'm just spitting out facts/ideas"....and I HAVE done qualitative tests to determine which method is "better". Hydrating yeasts with GoFerm Sterol-Flash makes a superior wine and takes about 15 to 20 minutes, versus overnight. Depending on must temperature, AF is usually 8 to 12 hours after pitch.

No offense, but this makes no sense. I consider the biology, where the yeast reproducing to an amount that represents critical mass, and that makes sense. The yeast is NOT reproducing sufficiently in 15-20 minutes to even remotely approach a critical mass, so why is that better?

 

[BPL]

It comes down to: who do we trust?

I'm an IT guy with nearly 40 years of industrial experience, wearing all type of positional hats. This includes working with a lot of folks in the CxO sphere, most of whom are idiots. Jobs go to those who want them, not those who are qualified.

That said, I look at promotional material, and question anything posted by PR, not the folks that do the real work.


No offense, but this makes no sense. I consider the biology, where the yeast reproducing to an amount that represents critical mass, and that makes sense. The yeast is NOT reproducing sufficiently in 15-20 minutes to even remotely approach a critical mass, so why is that better?

No offense taken. We are all here to learn and promote the craft.

I tend to be cynical as well.

In the matter of winemaking, I'm slow to believe “PR” materials. It's taken me about 3 years to trust what I read. Part of the time involved quicker aging batches that have proven what the documentation claims.

To put the 15 minutes I referenced in context, it is contact time of hydration using GoFerm Sterol Flash and has nothing to do with developing the biomass of conventional methods (for example, “proofing” yeast, “super starters”, overnight starters, etc.) The short hydration time enhances the efficiency of the yeast cells shortening the overall fermentation time. The attached screen shot was taken from the technical documentation for the product: https://files.scottlab.com/uploads/GO-FERM STEROL FLASH TDS.pdf Nothing is given on the method of data collection. For what it's worth, what I have seen using GoFerm Sterol Flash follows those time lines very closely.

The “why is that better?” part comes with understanding the function of sterols during fermentation. Sterols, specifically Ergosterol, is the key component of yeast plasma membranes. It maintains membrane integrity ensuring is neither too rigid nor too permeable. Sterols protect against stress and helps cells survive harsh conditions and stabilizes against oxidative damage. They help control nutrient uptake and prevent leakage of essential metabolites. Without sterols, yeast cells struggle to grow and divide properly.

The benefits are reducing residual sugar and promotes dry wine production, enhancing aroma and flavor, and improves mouthfeel and texture.

So, the absorption in a sterol rich environment is one of the keys to improving wine quality. The time element (for me) is not important.

I was a NAY sayer, until the tasting started…then I became a YEA sayer.

 

[winemaker81]

I tend to be cynical as well.

We're not cynical, we're experienced!

The “why is that better?” part comes with understanding the function of sterols during fermentation. Sterols, specifically Ergosterol, is the key component of yeast plasma membranes. It maintains membrane integrity ensuring is neither too rigid nor too permeable. Sterols protect against stress and helps cells survive harsh conditions and stabilizes against oxidative damage. They help control nutrient uptake and prevent leakage of essential metabolites. Without sterols, yeast cells struggle to grow and divide properly.

You have sold me on trying Go-Ferm next fall.

We have tentative plans our 2025 wines, and in recent years we split batches to ferment with different strains, then combine post-fermentation. I often reserve some wine from the batches for taste testing.

I'm considering dividing one of our 2025 wines in 4 batches -- two with Avante and two with Bravo, and for each strain, do one with Fermax and one with Go-Ferm and possibly Fermaid-O. It will be a bit complicated for a while, but we'll be able to do a direct comparison of the 5 wines (4 original batches + blend of all).

One of the difficulties for home winemakers is limited resources. I count myself more fortunate than many, as I have a large dedicated area in my cellar and a relatively large storage area. At the same time I'm constrained by the need to keep 3 barrels full (55 liter class), a storage area that is currently full, and other less critical factors.

I get to do a lot of fun stuff, but cannot do everything I want. I'd love to have a bunch of 23 liter barrels to do more experiments ... but I am content with what I have.

 

[BPL]

We're not cynical, we're experienced!

LMAO!!!

Go-Ferm and possibly Fermaid-O

I highly recommend using the combination of GoFerm Sterol Flash and accurate doses of Fermaid O.

My wine space (two car garage) is a jam packed pro-cabinet shop. My floor and storage space is extremely limited. I have to choose wine making equipment very wisely.

One of my last hurdles is measuring YAN. To date, I use an estimated starting YAN and calculate additions using the FermCalc app. The fermentation efficiency is about 2x what is "normal", all the while maintaining reasonable fermentation temperatures. Locking down fermentation temperatures has greatly contributed to holding the loss of aromas and flavors to an absolute minimum. That's easy on a small scale (6 gallon batches), really tough of a larger scale.

 

[winemaker81]

My wine space (two car garage) is a jam packed pro-cabinet shop. My floor and storage space is extremely limited. I have to choose wine making equipment very wisely.

One of "my" barrels is in my son's living room. It's a great conversation piece.

One of my last hurdles is measuring YAN. To date, I use an estimated starting YAN and calculate additions using the FermCalc app. The fermentation efficiency is about 2x what is "normal", all the while maintaining reasonable fermentation temperatures. Locking down fermentation temperatures has greatly contributed to holding the loss of aromas and flavors to an absolute minimum. That's easy on a small scale (6 gallon batches), really tough of a larger scale.

I'm liking the wines fermented cold-ish in the fall. My batches range from 90 to 150 lbs, so temperature control hasn't been a problem.

I could do larger batches, but the fermenters are too heavy to move around when necessary. In 2019 I tried 5 lug (180 lbs) batches, and learned a lesson. Since then I max at 150 lbs; when buying by the lug I max at 4 lugs (144 lbs).