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well. that sure is what i was hoping for? a big thank you....i am thinking of adding a few vines next year and may even remove a couple of varieties that 2-3 years experience tell me..."what am i growing that one for!"

as far as GR7 goes....would you say that the:

"Pros: bears well with pretty nice clusters. Well colored grapes and wine. Cherry and berry flavors and aromas."

....is worth the cons?

i was looking at AA Vineyard's description last evening and when you read the description each one says 'i am the best pick me!" :)

i am looking for 2-4 varieties for wine and 2-3 for table/jam

any recommendations?
 
It could be worth it for you there. They should ripen well and limit the vegetal characteristics. It is intended to be a blending wine, so you can minimize that. However knowing you soil and site is very vigorous, I would be wary. Think of Foch on steroids, if that gives you an idea what I am talking about. When I comb them I do what I call a very vgorous combing- and tear the snot out of it. The leaves are about 2-3 times as big as Frontenac and I would say on par with Marquis.


I don't remember if you have St Croix or not. That could be one variety of red. Sabrevois is really pretty good, especially blended. If it will live for you, Corot Noir does very nicely in a wine and lends about the best tannins of any hybrid. Noiret is nice, but needs to be on a grafted rootstock.


You have some nice whites growing already. ES6-16-30 contributes good body and I believe Andy grows it. I like Petite Amie for a good all around white. It has been slow to establish at Willsboro because the vines were of very poor quality tissue culture vines when we got them. I started 80 of them last year and got another 25 from Double A for my trial. They are growing more vigorously than the St. Pepin, and they are doing well.


There's a start for you.
 
I will try to ask Wayne Wilcox about it on Friday when he comes to my place with Justine Vanden Heuval. I will try to print out the pdf and ask him about it. It seems if anyone on the east coast will know about it, it will be Wayne. Good guy and he really knows his stuff! I will let you know.
 
great please let me know what he says...i am puzzled by this..i thought i had cut it all out a few weeks back but i saw two vines today showing the same symptoms....

as far as foch goes...it has shown signs of not handling our winters...and i thought it was a zone four....and by that i mean bud kill but i am also seeing this sudden wilt on it



thanks for the thoughts on varietieys..all the literature says the same things about every variety hahahah...they all are great!...
 
Rich..i recalled after you post that i have corresponded w him once before...so i got the email address and just emailed him.
 
another bit of info

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/grapeipm/decline.htm

<div id="crumbs">
B.C. Home

» Agriculture and Lands
» Pest Management
» Grape Diseases



<a name="mainContent"></a>
<hr>


<h1 id="titleBanner">Ministry of Agriculture and Lands</span></h1>



<h2 ="underline">Grape Diseases</h2>
<h2>Young Vine Decline</h2>
<ul>[*]Introduction[*]<a href="http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/grapeipm/decline.htm#survey" target="_blank">Okanagan Survey
Results</a>[*]
<a href="http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/grapeipm/decline.htm#symptoms" target="_blank">
General Symptoms</a>[*]Diagnosis[*]<a href="http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/grapeipm/decline.htm#links" target="_blank">Further Information on
Diseases Causing Vine Decline</a>[*]References[/list]
<h2><a name="introduction"></a>Introduction</h2>


Decline of young vines may have several causes,
including diseases, nematodes, environmental damage
such as winter injury, and cultural factors. Often
more than one factor or more than one disease may be
involved.
<h2><a name="survey"></a>Okanagan Survey Results
(2007-2008)</h2>


A recent survey conducted by Agriculture and Agri-Food
Canada investigated decline problems in Okanagan vineyards (O'Gorman, Haag &amp; Sholberg).
The survey confirmed the presence of several
fungal pathogens causing vine decline symptoms. Diseases detected included:
<ul ="arrow_list">[*]Black foot disease (Cylindrocarpon
spp.) - isolated from vines ranging from 3-15
years of age in several vineyards. Infection was
associated with both a gradual and a rapid
decline of vines.[*]Esca (Phaeomoniella chlamydospora and
Phaeoacremonium aleophilum) - detected in
necrotic vascular tissue on young vines up to 6
years old. Both Phaeoacremonium and
Cylindrocarpon
were recovered from vines in
one vineyard where over 50% of the vines showed
decline symptoms.[*]Botryosphaeria canker (Botryosphaeria
parva
and B. dothidea) - detected in
vines ranging from 3-11 years of age in several
vineyards. The vineyards where B. parva
was isolated showed severe decline problems.[*]Roesleria root rot (Roesleria subterainia)
- found in several vineyards in vines that were
also infected with Cylindrocarpon.[/list]


Note that black foot, esca and botryosphaeria
canker are all new diseases that have not been
previously diagnosed in British Columbia vineyards.
<h2><a name="symptoms"></a>General Symptoms</h2>


General symptoms of grapevine declines caused by
fungal pathogens include delayed and stunted growth,
short internodes, yellowing and premature loss of
leaves, tendril dieback, trunk dieback, dead arm and
cankers. Discolouration may be observed in the wood
when vines are cut open. Decline may be rapid,
causing plant death within 2-3 weeks, or slow,
resulting in reduced vigour and yield over a period
of years.
<h2><a name="diagnosis"></a>Diagnosis</h2>


Vine decline symptoms can be difficult to
diagnose accurately. B.C. grape growers interested
in diagnosis of decline problems should contact the
provincial plant
diagnostic laboratory or PARC Summerland for more
information.

<h2><a name="s"></a>Further Information on Diseases Causing Vine Decline</h2>
<ul ="arrow_list">[*]<a href="http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/grapeipm/cylindrocarpon.htm" target="_blank">Black foot disease (Cylindrocarpon
spp.) </a> [*]<a href="http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/grapeipm/esca.htm" target="_blank">Esca / Young Esca (Phaeomoniella
and

Phaeoacremonium spp.)</a>[*]Botryosphaeria canker (Botryosphaeria spp.)[*]Roesleria root rot (Roesleria subterainia)[*]<a href="http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/grapeipm/rootrot.htm" target="_blank">Pythium and
Phytophthora root rots</a>[*]Nematodes[*]Virus and
phytoplasma
diseases may also cause general decline symptoms
in grapevines.[/list]

<h2><a name="references"></a>References</h2>


O'Gorman, D.T., P. Haag &amp; P.L. Sholberg. 2008. New Diseases Causing
Decline of Wine Grapes in the Okanagan Valley. Canadian Plant Disease
Survey, in press.
 
If you like the Foch wine Al, yank it out and plant Millot. I like it better. The wine is a little easier to work with and if ripened well, I think it has more pronounced flavors. Also it is a little less vigorous.


Yes they all do sound great. I guess they don't sell many if they put a cation like this in their catalog
"Wonderous Grape is the envy of the neighborhood growing 32 feet every year. The thousands of shoots are just a growing phenomenon. The typical thousand bunches of grapes typically weigh a full one ounce each! The flavor of crap is covered by it's disagreeable harshness of excess tannins. The color is so dark it will stain your teeth forever. This grape can keep the whole population of dentists in business whitening teeth for thousands of years!


You are really missing the boat if you pass on this variety. It has the added bonus of imparting a natural vinegar flavor in it's wine. Try it and you will wonder why you did!"
 
I second the Noiret, idea.


From everything that I have read it looks very promising as a hybrid w/o the vegetable or foxy aromas. I was thinking of planting it myself, but 50% bud loss @ -14.7 degrees it wouldn't survive the -32 degree temp I had here this past winter. Unless I took it down and buried it, which I really don't want that type of work at this moment.


A side note:


I didn't realize the Noiret had to be grafted. None of the info I have read has directly stated that, besides the "It seems to loose some vigor after a few years, so you might want to graft it". I figured that would be a good thing to some extent, since it is classified as mod. vigor to vigorous. However, I don't have any experience with them, so my knowledge is limited to what is published.


Appleman would you mind elaborating on this a bit for me - either here, pm or on the wilsboro thread - since I would assume they are planted there.
 
R Zeigler I am speaking from first hand experience with this variety. It has been in at the Willsboro site for 5 years and the vigor continues to decline. I vine has just plain died. The first few years it went gangbusters, but now seems to struggle. I planted it at home 3 years ago and it winter killed to the snowline this last year at -22F, so -32 would be out of the question. They have regrown some this year except for 3 out of 25 that are just plain dead.
 
Not that I can plant it here, but for Al. What root stock would he use?


I looked at Double A Vineyards and there site just says grafted, but doesn't give the root stock type, but under the rootstock tab it shows the 101-14 as basically there only type they sell. Besides one other, which they declare to be unfit for grage production.


It is curious why Geneva would even allow this to be sold w/o being grafted. I would think it would hurt their image when ppl plant it and it just out right dies a fewyrs later.
 
They have it on 101-14 and Riparia for sure and probably on 3301. I think the slow decline is due to damage near the ground amking it susceptible to crown gall if present in the area. Patents and Liscenses are tricky things the way they are written. Once a vine variety is released, it is hard to unrelease it when a problem crops up. It is a good variety overall and many varieties need to be planted on grafted rootstocks. I will try to ask Bruce Reisch when I see him again next month about it and if he has a preference to what rootstock might do better. I could also ask Peter Cousins if I see him at the meeting. He works with disease and nematode resistance etc. in rootstocks.
 
just and fyi and a thanks here

RZ and Rich i appreciate the discussion on varieties...

and on the fyi part i was talking w andy farmer of ne vine supply...he mentioned last evening tht they are seeing some susceptibility to corwn gall on marquette that was not previously known...just an fyi..i have not seen it on any of mine as of yet
 
Just in case there are those who are not as fimiliar with crown gall - check out this site. There some pretty good general info.


http://plant-disease.ippc.orst.edu/articles.cfm?article_id=8




That was also an interesting article you found - nice find.
smiley1.gif
 
yep a good site on the crown gall.....some of the issues w vines we can control...but when it comes to things like agrobacterium vitis.....it starts to be tough and you just have to accept the loss of vines here and there...nevertheless if you only had 10-20 vines it means a lot to spend 3-4 yrs rebuilding it....if you lose twenty vines in a year and have 1000 its not so big....but you have to be careful because the problem could grow exponentially
 
i am at a crossroads.....



and as such wanted to hear people's thoughts....anyone's..you don't have
to have a vineyard...all you have to offer is your valued common sense



last year whatever was harvestable, i left unprotected from the
birds...i had no damage but it is only a matter of time and to be fair
i removed most of the harvest last year prior to harbest.....this year with five bird nests
already existing inside the trellis system and plenty ready to find out
just what is ready to ripen i must make a decision on nets.....naturally i do not want to put the nets on because it takes away from the beauty of the vineyard...BUT...reality is what it is



i have two choices as i currently see it



a) Vineside netting which protects just the fruiting zone

and,


b) netting that covers the entire vine



The pro's of both are obvious, they are intended to keep birds and deer
out of the fruit....so, having written off that, we are left, i
believe, to just a couple of pros and cons... because both can likely be done w just two people...



i have about 2 miles of row length in total...and it is 4 miles if we calculate for each side.



Let's take the Vineside Netting first. I would need 4 miles worth ( in my case 21,100 linear feet.
20090720_160846_vineside.jpg




The pro is that it should be lighter to handle...covers the fruiting zone only
and that is good because it lets more light in and leaves the rest of
the vine accessible to pruning etc....it also means i can clip any
excessive growth and keep the canopy open which is huge at that time of year of course



To me the con is simple...it has to be clipped everywhere to connect both sides



cost $1755 for the nest only ( no clips) Spec Trellis

http://www.spectrellising.com/wildlife/index.php#vineside</span>





The pro on the net that drapes over is that you throw it over and you are done...SIMPLE....we can debate whether you need bricks or something to hold it down, but i think that is not a real issue



the con is that any growth stays trapped inside the netted area and that could reduce sunlight and air flow...not a small con.



cost for the draped net $ 4730.00 for vinenet from spec trellis
http://www.spectrellising.com/wildlife/index.php#vineside</span>

OR
from BareHand
http://www.vineyardbirdnetting.com/priceorder.php

you can get their Flex netting and the cost would be about $2200
20090720_163717_flex.jpg

moz-screenshot.png

and their Bare Hand Easy Fit would be about $ 2600.00
20090720_163508_easyfit.jpg



i may be missing something here....please tell me what you think
 
Al -Keepingan open canopy, maintaining thepossibilty to manage the vines, not to mention additional sunlight to fully ripen the grapes seem like compleling reasons for vineside netting. Con is extra effort to install? You identified some pretty bigwins overfully draped netting.
 
Al take my experience for what it is worth- not that much. For me, if I have a canopy conducive to it, the vineside is the only way to go. One person can easily install it- it REQUIRES two people at least for over the top netting. Vineside-You fasten one end, roll it off the spool on both sides. Then you take a few clips and hook to one wire so the fruit will be half way inside. Go back and fasten the second side to the first every few feet. Simple inexpensive clips work-forget the yellow ones with a bunch of hooks. Then go back and fasten the bottoms. All in all pretty easy.


Over the top netting needs a person on either side and the net sticks to everything going on- a royal pain. Then the bottom needs closing completely or birds will get in it. Even if you miss small areas they will get in. They are impossible to get out and if you don't want them to kill themselves in the net you need to dispatch them with a bb or pellet gun for mercy sake. Like you say, once it is on, you are done with canopy management for the year. It is a royal pain to try to harvest riper areas first- it just isn't worth it.


With the Vineside netting, you can open the area you want to harvest before the rest easily and refasten easily. Canopy managment is still very manageable with the vineside netting . After harvest take the clips off and pull it into a garbage bag for easy installation next year.
Over the top netting requires a lot of effort to remove before picking and then to bag it for reinstallation next year.


All in all, any VSP vines get vineside and nothing else.


Good luck battling the birds. A nice thing about so many of my vines freezing this year is I don't need more netting this year. I should have about enough.
 

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