Fusils and fermenting

[spg1954]

I have just begun to notice a correlation between very vigorous fermentation and the presence of fusils. The Thought Bubble just popped up when i was whipping the crap out of my Dragons in Paradise wine for the 7th time. It seems like all past fermentations that are crazy busy have had this issue. Most i've found are salvageable but at the start have me questioning if they are bound for the drain or not. Getting to recognize the smell as soon as i walk into the wine room. Maybe has happened 4 times? Not sure about the causation, hoping the more learned people here could give me some clues or have similar experiences. Various recipes, most have OSG from 1.000 to 1.180, some had Ferment O, all in controlled temp from 69-70 F. I feel degassing frequently really helps, along with bulk aging for at least 6 mo. Still, it feels like one of these batches is not going to make it out of ICU.

Thank you for any insights.

 

[BigDaveK]

Clarification please?

As a military history buff I only know fusil as a musket carried by a fusilier. I'm guessing you probably don't have muskets in your wine.

 

[sour_grapes]

He means "fusel": Fusel alcohol - Wikipedia

Fusel alcohols or fuselol, also sometimes called fusel oils in Europe, are mixtures of several higher alcohols (those with more than two carbons, chiefly amyl alcohol) produced as a by-product of alcoholic fermentation.[1] The word Fusel [ˈfuːzl̩] is German for "bad liquor".[2]

 

[Rice_Guy]

? you have me wondering what you are tasting ? , , , as an example the November 2022 issue of Winemaker Magazine has an article Who’s Fault Was It: about the thousands of samples in Winemaker Contest. Number one defect was oxidation, number two was reduction and number three was microbial infection off flavors.

Do you have a wine club close to you where you can get second opinions on the defect? Likewise I am curious what fusel oils taste like since I can’t say that I know how fusel oils taste. My experience is that I dealt with oxidation/ acetaldehyde on all batches till I assumed every racking had zero free SO2 so just automatically add 50ppm. Currently I dwell on being reductive which by @weaverschmitz is called “fried chicken” and by Tom C was called “skunk” and by the college kids at a meeting was called “this would taste good with ice cream”. , , , , A good name will help fix the cause, ,,, my feeling is that the vinters club will make better wine if we‘all can taste/ name what chemicals we are producing. I am really curious what you are making, and will PM you about a sample.
As a side note I am looking for samples of off flavors that can be used for training judges in the spring contest.

The guess on my part would be that your defect risk is the same as in the article since this follows what I have seen as a contest judge, ex the first place I tasted geranium was in a contest where someone said “this is nnn we should all familiarize ourselves”.

I didn’t catch your first post so welcome to Wine Making Talk

 

[spg1954]

Clarification please?

As a military history buff I only know fusil as a musket carried by a fusilier. I'm guessing you probably don't have muskets in your wine.

Yeah... sorry about that, but i think you know what i was talking about. I guess from not having anything to compare it to, and not having anyone around that can definitively say that is just that, it is closest to what others have described as Jet fuel. Having worked on helicopters for a portion of my life, i can say it resembles some of the fumes i remember.
Thank you for the welcome, but i believe i posted sometime back. Haven't felt i had anything to contribute except for mistakes and bad spelling.

 

[Raptor99]

This is something that I have been trying to learn. If my wine has an off flavor, what exactly is the fault? Trying to put a label on the fault based on someone else's description is difficult. It would be great to have the opportunity to train my palate to recognize the different off flavors so that I can identify them.

 

[wood1954]

This is something that I have been trying to learn. If my wine has an off flavor, what exactly is the fault? Trying to put a label on the fault based on someone else's description is difficult. It would be great to have the opportunity to train my palate to recognize the different off flavors so that I can identify them.

Right, I try to imagine the descriptions for brettanomyces, wet dog or barnyard or horse sweat or locker room. I never get close to sweaty horses
and really can’t remember high school locker room smell, my dogs smelled like shampoo if they got wet, barnyard I know, however even there it could be pig, cow, horse or chicken which all smell different. Acetone is pretty obvious because I have four sisters who used it on their finger nails. Burnt rubber, rotten eggs are pretty easy to identify, acetaldehyde is a little harder VA is a mild vinegar smell that I can detect in a lot of sub ten dollar wine. Flavors are harder for me because people seem to just make up descriptions for their wine.

 

[Rice_Guy]

This is something that I have been trying to learn. If my wine has an off flavor, what exactly is the fault? Trying to put a label on the fault based on someone else's description is difficult. It would be great to have the opportunity to train my palate to recognize the different off flavors so that I can identify them.

Do you have a state fair or county fair contest? This state has both. In this state a little experience will let you get on the judging panel,, and no experience will let you be the steward (who collects paperwork/ can taste all the wines)
There are regional contests as KC cellar dwellers, shipping is pricey but the info is nice. Winemaker Mag has a contest.
If you are close to the grape growing regions there should be other home winemakers, try to start a club.
You could go through the sommelier training.
One of the club members runs wine tastings to compare different wineries.

You aren’t the only person on the learning curve.

 

[BigDaveK]

Yeah... sorry about that, but i think you know what i was talking about. I guess from not having anything to compare it to, and not having anyone around that can definitively say that is just that, it is closest to what others have described as Jet fuel. Having worked on helicopters for a portion of my life, i can say it resembles some of the fumes i remember.
Thank you for the welcome, but i believe i posted sometime back. Haven't felt i had anything to contribute except for mistakes and bad spelling.

My bad - forgot to add one of the smiley faces afterwards. I'm sure you've noticed there's some innocent razzing now and then.
And mistakes and bad spelling? Who cares. We're here to have fun and make wine.

 

[winemaker81]

Yeah... sorry about that, but i think you know what i was talking about. I guess from not having anything to compare it to, and not having anyone around that can definitively say that is just that, it is closest to what others have described as Jet fuel. Having worked on helicopters for a portion of my life, i can say it resembles some of the fumes i remember.
Thank you for the welcome, but i believe i posted sometime back. Haven't felt i had anything to contribute except for mistakes and bad spelling.

Text is a difficult medium for communication, as tone and humor must be made blatant else they're hard to understand. I knew Dave was joking, but we harass each other (in real fun, not mean spirited bullying labeled "fun") on a normal basis.

Generally speaking, you won't finds the grammar police operating on WMT, but we do correct technical terms. Off-n-on someone will state "sulfate" when they mean "sulfite", and that gets corrected quickly, as the two mean VERY different things. They're/their/there get ignored, "sulfate" doesn't.

By all means, post! I learn as much from beginners and relative novices as I do the more experienced folks. Sometimes the questions asked start investigation and produce new learning. Besides, if you don't know something, it's guaranteed that others don't, either.

 

[luis costa]

what is the difference between sulfate and sulfite and their use

 

[winemaker81]

what is the difference between sulfate and sulfite and their use

Potassium metabisulfite (K-meta) is used in winemaking as a antioxidant, anti-microbiological agent, and a preservative. It is commonly used generally in the food industry as well.

Potassium sulfate is a fertilizer, and is not used in winemaking.

 

[Rice_Guy]

For those that like chemistry metabisulphite is a reduced compound which means that it will react with an oxidizing compound like oxygen or hydrogen peroxide and make them go away so they can’t damage the wine

what is the difference between sulfate and sulfite and their use

yeast have enough metabolic flexibility that they can use sulfates as a nutrient.