Grape varieties for south central Indiana

[mpdeem]

Researching different varieties that do well in south central Indiana - Lawrence County. Cold winters, humid summers, super heavy clay soil. Just need enough to make a a few batch of wine. Would like to start out very small - just a few test vines several varietals to start, until I figure out what is tenable given my conditions and abilities (me, myself, and I as limited labor force)

Interested in making Extra Brut and Brut Nature style sparklers using double fermentation - Méthode Champenoise or Charmet.

Would also enjoy making still dry wines. Keeping options open because beggars can’t be choosers with my growing and soil conditions.

Most locally grown varietals are Vignoles, Vidal, Traminette, and Catawba. Oliver and Butler wineries are both semi local to me. I have tasted some nice Catawba wines...but otherwise have not found other varietals compelling. Given local preference for simple sweet and off dry wines, hard to say wines reflect full potential of these varietals.

A few counties south Huber Winery grows several red varieties - including Tannat. Being a fan of French southwestern wine I would love to grow a few Tannat vines but suspect both temps and soil conditions at Huber are different than mine.

Currently able to grow tomatoes, garlic, beans, and other garden crops with minimal soil amendment (horse manure, lime). Soil requires regular aeration both off and on season – but results are worth it. Plant by the signs (but don’t bury cow horns or howl at the moon).

There is one section of land that is different - shallow clay soil over limestone, abundant limestone sink holes/karst, decent leaf hummus (in woods partial sunlight). Has abundant wild Ramp growth (only place on our land where Ramps grow). Would have to be dry farmed since too far from water source. Would be curious to see if this section of land might be contusive to growing certain wine grapes...with my luck would probably just result in Ramp tasting wine LOL.

Would love to hear from other Hoosiers, especially those stuck with super dense clay. Have noticed some rather large variation in soil even within Lawrence County. For example Bedford – only 20 minutes down the road, has sections of rather nice loamy soil more typical of the northern half of the state.S

 

[VinesnBines]

I’m not in Indiana but I’ll have a vineyard of various hybrids in the Appalachian Mountains of Southwestern Virginia. We have heavy clay and cold winters with late Spring frosts. Of the varieties you just named, I’m growing Vidal and Traminette. I’m trialing Vigoloes but no data to share.

Vidal can be made into any style of wine including sparkling. I inadvertently made a semi sparkling Vidal that was a hit. I haven’t really tried to make a true sparkling wine. Traminette can be made into a variety of styles and sparkling can be nice.

I’m growing Chardonel which is very similar to Chardonnay and Cayuga White which is a very neutral white - more like Pinot Grigio. I think both these can make good sparkling wines.

You may try growing anything you like. I can’t predict your success but you might have great luck.

 

[mpdeem]

I’m not in Indiana but I’ll have a vineyard of various hybrids in the Appalachian Mountains of Southwestern Virginia. We have heavy clay and cold winters with late Spring frosts. Of the varieties you just named, I’m growing Vidal and Traminette. I’m trialing Vigoloes but no data to share.

Vidal can be made into any style of wine including sparkling. I inadvertently made a semi sparkling Vidal that was a hit. I haven’t really tried to make a true sparkling wine. Traminette can be made into a variety of styles and sparkling can be nice.

I’m growing Chardonel which is very similar to Chardonnay and Cayuga White which is a very neutral white - more like Pinot Grigio. I think both these can make good sparkling wines.

You may try growing anything you like. I can’t predict your success but you might have great luck.

Thank you for sharing your expierences. I would love to hear more about your inadvertant semi sparkling Vidal -specifically how it became a sparkling wine.

Of the varieties you grow which ones offer the most flavor complexity especially as dry whites? I find the Vidal and Chardonnels based local wines are more complex than say the Traminette or Cayuga White -and are used to make dry whites.

Would be interested in hearing more about the Vignoles when you finish trailing it. You can always point me to an existing thread if you have posted elsewhere with regard to this or other subjects in my post.

Are there any varietials that seem more resistant to powder mildew and/or better suitde to heavy soils? What sort of trellising and pruning do you do? And most importantly - how do you overwinter your wines?

Thank you so much for sharing so much information - your generosity is greatly apprecaited. Look forward to hearing more as your conditions sound very similar to mine

 

[VinesnBines]

The sparkling Vidal was a happy goof. I thought the wine was stable so I back sweetened without using potassium sorbate. Apparently it wasn’t stable. I tried to replicate the sparkle but have been unsuccessful.

I think Traminette is very complex. It needs at least 48 hours of skin contact to bring out the spice. I’ve left it on the skins up to 10 days and I’m pleased with the results. It also can use a tiny bit of sweeting to develop the flavors.

Cayuga can be varied depending on time of harvest. I’ve harvested Cayuga both early and late. I’m trying to decide which works best. Early harvest had really high acid and I fought to reduce the acid. This year I harvested the Cayuga late and fermented on the skins. Soon after pressing it seemed flabby but it seems to be improving. Also, this year I’m trying barrel aging Cayuga. I think it is developing well.

Traminette can manage on VSP trellis as can Chardonel and Vidal. I’m moving my Cayuga to top wire; it wants to hang low and the fruit can drag the vines down further.

I mostly cane prune. I can have a lot of winter dieback and I find cane pruning easier to manage. Frankly the vine tells me how to prune. That sounds silly but it’s true.

All four whites are fairly resistant to powdery mildew. Vidal is more susceptible to downy mildew. I had a lot of problem this year with downy on Vidal.

I have had trouble getting Chardonel to get established. I don’t know that the soil is the problem. I think the weather is more likely. I also have lost a few Vidal. We had sub zero weather in December, 2022 and I think several three and four year old Vidal succumbed; the cold caused the trunks to split.

I bought some grafted vines for my first planting in 2019 and I tried covering the graft with soil. It was a lot of work. I did that for the first two years. Now, I try to get self rooted vines to avoid the need to cover the grafts. Otherwise I don’t do anything to overwinter. We don’t often get single digits or sub zero temperatures. All the varieties are cold hardy.

 

[Rice_Guy]

welcome to WMT
No opinion on what to grow down south. Expect that learning to control fungus will be as important as the type of grape.

 

[winemaker81]

Two reasons the local wines are backsweetened:

• Local taste -- many folks like sweet wines.
• Acid -- cold weather grown French-American hybrids are typically high in acid, and sugar balances that.

I purchased grapes from @VinesnBines:

• 2023: Vidal, Chambourcin
• 2024: Vidal, Chardonnel, Chambourcin, Chelois

The 2023 Vidal was fermented in 2 batches: juice only, and the remainder on the skins (called "orange" wine because of the hue). The juice was not backsweetened and was a bit tart. We backsweetened by the glass with agave nectar. This was a 12 liter batch split between 3 people, so it's already gone.

The Orange batch was backsweetened slightly (1 cup sugar in 12 liters). The Orange momentarily has a perception of acid and sugar, which then disappears. It's entirely possible I notice it simply because I'm looking for it. The final effect is off-dry.

The 2024 Vidal and Chardonnel were both fermented on the skins, using Lalvin 31 MLB to reduce the malic acid. My cellar is typically in the upper 50's F in the winter, so both wines have dropped tartaric crystals. [Vidal drops crystals right after fermentation anyway].

At the last tasting a month ago, the Chardonnel will probably be bottled dry. The Vidal was just a bit sharp, and it may need a slight backsweetening, but I'm sure the current cold snap has induced more crystals to drop.

Note that Vidal and Vignoles are multi-purpose grapes. They make very nice dry wines (when the acid level permits), and also make Ice Wine, and everything in between.

 

[mpdeem]

The sparkling Vidal was a happy goof. I thought the wine was stable so I back sweetened without using potassium sorbate. Apparently it wasn’t stable. I tried to replicate the sparkle but have been unsuccessful.

I think Traminette is very complex. It needs at least 48 hours of skin contact to bring out the spice. I’ve left it on the skins up to 10 days and I’m pleased with the results. It also can use a tiny bit of sweeting to develop the flavors.

I hope you are able to replicate your sparkles - if so let me know. I am always open to different styles and methods of achieving sparkling wines. As an odd aside, while I love efferscence in my wines, I do not like soda at all..not even soda water...go fugure.

I have wondered about the best time to stabalize sparkling wine using methode Champenoise..I assume one would stabalize after disgorgement when second ferment andautolysis is complete. So far in my mini fast ferment batches, I have not had the need to stabalize. When one is doing mini batches in mason jars at room temp fermentations are Fast and Furious..probably because I am over doing the amount of yeast.

Thank you for your thoughts on Traminette. I have always enjoyed the flavor profile but never really found drier complex examples locally....so your opinion gives me hope. Definately will add it to my 'vines to buy' list.

As an aside, I see from winemaker81's helpful post that you sell grapes? If so please send me prices and availability. I would LOVE to have a good semi local grape source Do you sell any vines or cuttings?

I suspect my winters -particularily Jan and Feb might be a tad colder than yours...but not enough to impact extreme relevance of your of expierences and advice. Sounds like self rooting vines might be better than grafted ones to avoid cold damage to graft side during winter.

Thank you so much for such a detailed post on pruning, growing, and winemaking. Your posts have really helped give me much needed information and context pertinant to my locale.
My mother lives in the Russian River Valley and has acess to Sonoma and Napa grapes, juice, and vines. As you can imagine the differences in locale alone make application of her suggestons very limited. In fact her first suggestion was to find local or semi local resources for help in both winemaking and growing.

I am still digesting (pardon the pun) the rest of your post. Thank you so much for the wealth of information that you have shared . I feel that some token of gratitude is in order. Since my nascent wine efforts are ahem something I would not foist even ipon my worst enemy (well I enjoy them like a parent loves their bratty kids)....I would be happy to offer instead, some Romanian Red garlic from next summer's harvest, or some Italian dry beans....Rossi di Lucca and/pr Decimato beans. Both are hearty red-pink type stew beans...sort of like a cross between a red kidney bean and a pink pinto but with much more flavor! Would be glad to send you garlic or beans as a thank you for your help

 

[VinesnBines]

I’m happy to help but Steve Casscles is your best cold climate expert. He is a grower in the NY Hudson Valley and an author. His book “Grapes of the Hudson Valley” has s a great resource. I can give his email and his Facebook link. He is a super nice guy and really knows cold climate hybrid grapes. He sells cuttings and is focused on spreading great hybrids throughout the nation.

So that’s the commercial!

I’m glad to help. I priced my grapes at 89 cents a pound in 2024. We are located in Glade Spring, Virginia.

The 2024 crop was exceptional though the Vidal did not ripen well. The weather was extremely dry and downy mildew prevented full ripening of our last ripening variety -Vidal. Everything else was well above normal or average production. We did lose about 30 to 40 lbs of Chambourcin when the hurricane blew through. A tree came down into the vineyard and crushed about 3 Chambourcin vines.

I don’t expect 2025 to be as productive but we should have grapes available. I have the four whites we discussed, plus several reds. My best reds are Chambourcin (similar to Shiraz). My Chambourcin (2022 and 2023) are barrel aged and have a nose of chocolate covered cherries - think Queen Anne chocolate covered cherries!

My next best is Chelois. It can be similar to Chambourcin but not as intense. My husband likes it better than Chambourcin. It is fruity and lighter, very pleasant.

I also have a few vines of several other reds : Marchel Foch, Leon Millot, Marquette, DeChaunac, Chancellor, Landot Noir, Norton. I’m still working with these to determine whether I plant larger quantities.

My vineyard is a long term project. We only have one other commercial vineyard in the county and another close by but at a lower elevation. We are forging new ground, literally and figuratively!

 

[Rice_Guy]

As an aside, I see from winemaker81's helpful post that you sell grapes? If so please send me prices and availability. I would LOVE to have a good semi local grape source Do you sell any vines or cuttings?

Indiana has several smaller wineries. Therefore there should be some regional vineyards. In the Wisconsin market there is basically an excess of grapes produced and today after watched the fields on trips it is easy to get grapes.
I have mailed grape vine cuttings. It was easy.
There is a mid size winery at Perdue. One of my sources for grapes is the university crop trials here, , IU does wine publications, their extension might know who is local to you/ what grows.