Ground Cherry - Wow!

[Khristyjeff]

Inspired by @BigDaveK, I grew Aunt Molly ground cherries this year. Finally had a chance to empty the freezer and shut it down for the winter (it’s in an unheated detached garage).

Final tally... 30# ground cherry, 9# Fantastico cherry tomatoes, 7# red raspberries, 4# pears. Will pitch the 71b yeast tomorrow.

View attachment 108224

This should be an interesting combination. I can't wait to see how it turns out! I've got a bunch of ground cherries in the freezer I have yet to decide how to use.

 

[winemanden]

Sounds interesting! Just for the record, I'm not sure if we have them in the UK. What is the official name for them. If I can get seed, I may give it a go next year.

 

[Khristyjeff]

Sounds interesting! Just for the record, I'm not sure if we have them in the UK. What is the official name for them. If I can get seed, I may give it a go next year.

Try this link.
https://www.rareseeds.com/ground-cherry-aunt-molly-sThere is an older variety but this one seemed to grow bigger and better.

 

[Gary Hidalgo]

Try this link.
https://www.rareseeds.com/ground-cherry-aunt-molly-sThere is an older variety but this one seemed to grow bigger and better.

Seed saver exchange has them

 

[VinesnBines]

Sounds interesting! Just for the record, I'm not sure if we have them in the UK. What is the official name for them. If I can get seed, I may give it a go next year.

Since winemaiden is in the UK, he cannot order plant materials from the US.

I found this link. PHYSALIS GOLDEN BERRY AUNT MOLLY'S GROUND CHERRY | Cape Gooseberry Seeds. I expect there are others.

 

[Huba Huba]

@carjoe87 welcome to WMT!
Wisdom? Just another simple winemaker but I'll help any way I can. And I think you'll like the ground cherry.

You don't have to follow the recipe exactly, it's a guideline. Doing it again like that I would bump up the fruit to 4-5 lbs, acid to pH 3.5ish, sugar to whatever ABV you're shooting for.

However I learned something since then that you may find interesting. I had 16+ lbs of ground cherries in the freezer and instead of messing around with a big 5 gallon or multiple 1 gallon I made a 3 gallon batch with just ground cherries, no water. I now test all my ingredients and the SG before adding sugar was 1.060, but it didn't taste that sweet. I discovered ground cherries have sugar alcohols, not sugar, and sugar alcohols are not used by yeast. I mostly ignored the SG and calculated sugar for about 1.090. (1 lb of sugar will approximately give you .040.) After sugar my starting SG was 1.140, it finished at .992 and the alcohol isn't noticeable.

Keep in mind the hydrometer measures density and not sugar content. I suggest you take a reading before adding sugar and use it or ignore it. You're the wine maker, you're the boss.

Good luck!

Have you tasted this yet? Did more fruit improve it? I have about 20 lbs frozen from last year and I'm trying to decide on how to proceed. I am thinking about a full fruit, starting with a lower pH, maybe 3.0-3.2 for a little more tartness. I have 71b yeast but thinking about trying QA23. Did you add tannin to this version, how much?

 

[BigDaveK]

Have you tasted this yet? Did more fruit improve it? I have about 20 lbs frozen from last year and I'm trying to decide on how to proceed. I am thinking about a full fruit, starting with a lower pH, maybe 3.0-3.2 for a little more tartness. I have 71b yeast but thinking about trying QA23. Did you add tannin to this version, how much?

I sure did. Bottled a week ago. My opinion is unchanged - Wow!

First a couple interesting firsts for me....
I started at a pH of 3.2 and at bottling time it went to 3.94! I've had many swings of .20 before but never .70.
Also, it refused to de-gas. Almost 10 months in bulk and the amount of CO2 was unbelievable. I used a drill-mounted stirring rod over 3 days. I might be imagining things but I'd swear the volume reduced a little.

I did not add tannin. Fermenting with the skins and seeds I decided to be cautious. I'm happy with the astringency.

It smelled like a grape wine with a very slight floral hint.

Mouth feel was wonderful. Whether that was from the 71B or the fruit or a combination I don't know.

My first ground cherry wine used 3 lbs of fruit for a gallon, it was all I had. Delicious and fruity but the fruit flavors weren't pronounced enough to identify. That changed! I back sweetened aggressively (for me), going to 1.016, and the fruit flavor exploded. Orange then lemon then apricot followed by a little raspberry. Yes, delicious.

I have zero experience with QA23 but I'm happy with 71B and would probably use it again. Tweaks? Nothing obvious pops into my head.

Whether it's 3 lbs/gallon or all fruit and no water, I think ground cherries make a wonderful wine.

 

[Huba Huba]

Sounds like I have my plan, a 3+ gallon full fruit ground cherry! Will probably use the 71b since I have that and I don't have any experience using QA23. I guess there was no problem starting fermentation at the 1.140? or did you step feed the sugar? I know the sugar alcohols won't ferment but don't know if they will interfere in any way.
Did you add acid prior to bottling to drop the pH? What was your pH when you bottled.

 

[BigDaveK]

Sounds like I have my plan, a 3+ gallon full fruit ground cherry! Will probably use the 71b since I have that and I don't have any experience using QA23. I guess there was no problem starting fermentation at the 1.140? or did you step feed the sugar? I know the sugar alcohols won't ferment but don't know if they will interfere in any way.
Did you add acid prior to bottling to drop the pH? What was your pH when you bottled.

The ground cherry was a major turning point in my country wine making. A most unusual ingredient to be sure. Because of it I started doing a deep dive on all my flavor ingredients. My "recipes" and procedures are still changing and evolving because of it. I have bittersweet comfort with the additional information knowing that many questions will remain unanswered without some serious lab work. So be it. We do the best we can with information we have.

No, I did not step feed. According to my notes the must went from 1.140 to 1.090 in 2 days, implying very fast alcohol production and an ABV of 6+%. Unlikely, certainly improbable. It took a total of 9 days to reach 1.020 at which point I transferred to secondary. A slow ferment for me but possibly explained by an ambient temperature of 58F. And who knows what the lower temp contributed to the final product?

Yes, I added acid to taste, rather than "chasing a number". Curiosity is always present, of course, and that "number" turned out to be 3.62.

So many variables and a very unusual ingredient - what will my result be next time?

 

[Huba Huba]

@carjoe87 welcome to WMT!
Wisdom? Just another simple winemaker but I'll help any way I can. And I think you'll like the ground cherry.

You don't have to follow the recipe exactly, it's a guideline. Doing it again like that I would bump up the fruit to 4-5 lbs, acid to pH 3.5ish, sugar to whatever ABV you're shooting for.

However I learned something since then that you may find interesting. I had 16+ lbs of ground cherries in the freezer and instead of messing around with a big 5 gallon or multiple 1 gallon I made a 3 gallon batch with just ground cherries, no water. I now test all my ingredients and the SG before adding sugar was 1.060, but it didn't taste that sweet. I discovered ground cherries have sugar alcohols, not sugar, and sugar alcohols are not used by yeast. I mostly ignored the SG and calculated sugar for about 1.090. (1 lb of sugar will approximately give you .040.) After sugar my starting SG was 1.140, it finished at .992 and the alcohol isn't noticeable.

Keep in mind the hydrometer measures density and not sugar content. I suggest you take a reading before adding sugar and use it or ignore it. You're the wine maker, you're the boss.

Good luck!

I am not trying to be a dick or question your procedure/results but I am having trouble understanding some of this. If the juice SG was 1.060 and most of this is from sugar alcohols, and they aren’t fermentable, shouldn’t the ending SG be nearly unchanged? How can the SG have dropped all the way to 0.992, doesn’t this indicate that most of the soluble solids have been fermented, and if so shouldn’t the ABV be near 19-20%? 71b shouldn’t be capable of this. Are there soluble solids that can be fermented/broken down and not contribute to the ABV?
Conversely If the original SG of 1.140 was mostly fermentable, the ferment may have been difficult to start, the ending ABV would have been pretty harsh, and 71b probably would not have finished. I think you are right in your conclusions but I don’t understand what’s going on.

 

[BigDaveK]

I am not trying to be a dick or question your procedure/results but I am having trouble understanding some of this. If the juice SG was 1.060 and most of this is from sugar alcohols, and they aren’t fermentable, shouldn’t the ending SG be nearly unchanged? How can the SG have dropped all the way to 0.992, doesn’t this indicate that most of the soluble solids have been fermented, and if so shouldn’t the ABV be near 19-20%? 71b shouldn’t be capable of this. Are there soluble solids that can be fermented/broken down and not contribute to the ABV?
Conversely If the original SG of 1.140 was mostly fermentable, the ferment may have been difficult to start, the ending ABV would have been pretty harsh, and 71b probably would not have finished. I think you are right in your conclusions but I don’t understand what’s going on.

I'm no expert and I don't have all the answers but with luck and time I'll have fewer questions. All I can do now is share my observations which will possibly offer some clarity...or muddle things even more.

Keep in mind that SG is a measure of density. We like to think it's mostly sugar but with country wines that's not always the case. In addition to nonfermentable sugar alcohols I believe there are other compounds that simply settle with the lees. Some examples: my last tomato wine (a delicious tomato-caraway) had an SG prior to sugar of 1.024 which, out of curiosity, I decided to ignore. In less than 24 hours it went from 1.110 to 1.078, possible but I have my doubts. And flowers are generally believed to have zero sugar. I've made at least a dozen different flower wines and most have an SG prior to sugar of close to 1.000 but my day lily was 1.026, magnolia 1.016 and redbud was 1.024. And my rose hips came it at 1.050! Do I think that a quart or so of flowers has more sugar than 6 lbs of raspberries or blackberries? (Answer - no.)

I understand you want 1+1=2 but sometimes 1+1=2ish is what you get. I think most country wine ingredients obligingly follow the "wine rules" but some are determined to be different. Like the ground cherries. Do the research, make decisions, hope for the best, learn, repeat. At bottling time I don't effin' care about ABV or pH - if it tastes good I'm happy.

I hope this wasn't a non-answer answer. The ground cherry didn't have high ABV or harshness, both of which I've experienced. My high ABV dessert wines, balanced with no harshness, make me feel tipsy in a few minutes. They're some of my favorites!

And I like to think this is still a free country so you can be a Richard or a Karen or both, doesn't bother me!

 

[winemaker81]

I am not trying to be a dick or question your procedure/results but I am having trouble understanding some of this.

Your question is a good one.

I understand you want 1+1=2 but sometimes 1+1=2ish is what you get.

1 + 1 = 2 for sufficiently large values of 1.

You're spot on -- things don't always add up the way we expect them to, as we don't understand all the pieces & parts.

 

[Raptor99]

I can see why @Huba Huba has a question...

Keep in mind that SG is a measure of density. We like to think it's mostly sugar but with country wines that's not always the case. In addition to nonfermentable sugar alcohols I believe there are other compounds that simply settle with the lees.

This is a very good point, one which we should keep in mind.

But you also said back in April:

I now test all my ingredients and the SG before adding sugar was 1.060, but it didn't taste that sweet. I discovered ground cherries have sugar alcohols, not sugar, and sugar alcohols are not used by yeast. I mostly ignored the SG and calculated sugar for about 1.090. (1 lb of sugar will approximately give you .040.) After sugar my starting SG was 1.140, it finished at .992 and the alcohol isn't noticeable.

If the must had an SG of 1.060 before adding sugar, and if that was mostly non-fermentables, then how could the FG be 0.992? What happened to the non-fermentables? Some solids may have dropped out, but not the sugar alcohols.

Ethanol has a SG below 1.0, but I'm not sure of the SG of sugar alcohols. So I'm not sure how that would affect your SG readings.

 

[Huba Huba]

I'm no expert and I don't have all the answers but with luck and time I'll have fewer questions. All I can do now is share my observations which will possibly offer some clarity...or muddle things even more.

Keep in mind that SG is a measure of density. We like to think it's mostly sugar but with country wines that's not always the case. In addition to nonfermentable sugar alcohols I believe there are other compounds that simply settle with the lees. Some examples: my last tomato wine (a delicious tomato-caraway) had an SG prior to sugar of 1.024 which, out of curiosity, I decided to ignore. In less than 24 hours it went from 1.110 to 1.078, possible but I have my doubts. And flowers are generally believed to have zero sugar. I've made at least a dozen different flower wines and most have an SG prior to sugar of close to 1.000 but my day lily was 1.026, magnolia 1.016 and redbud was 1.024. And my rose hips came it at 1.050! Do I think that a quart or so of flowers has more sugar than 6 lbs of raspberries or blackberries? (Answer - no.)

I understand you want 1+1=2 but sometimes 1+1=2ish is what you get. I think most country wine ingredients obligingly follow the "wine rules" but some are determined to be different. Like the ground cherries. Do the research, make decisions, hope for the best, learn, repeat. At bottling time I don't effin' care about ABV or pH - if it tastes good I'm happy.

I hope this wasn't a non-answer answer. The ground cherry didn't have high ABV or harshness, both of which I've experienced. My high ABV dessert wines, balanced with no harshness, make me feel tipsy in a few minutes. They're some of my favorites!

And I like to think this is still a free country so you can be a Richard or a Karen or both, doesn't bother me!

thank you, I do appreciate you sharing your observations.

 

[BigDaveK]

thank you, I do appreciate you sharing your observations.

You're welcome. I'm happy to share since we're all on the same journey.

And @Raptor99 wine making certainly isn't rocket surgery but without lab analysis I think some answers will remain fuzzy. I'm glad most ferments are predictable but I enjoy a mystery now and then. I agree, I don't think the sugar alcohols would drop out. I suspect it would mimic a "residual sugar" impression. How it affects SG, don't know. Found some erythritol on a shelf, I'll have to test.