Harford Vineyard Chilean Grape/Juice Pickup

[Tnuscan]

Sorry, I meant taste.

 

[Boatboy24]

Sorry, I meant taste.

Ah, thanks Dave. Either way. If it is still bad, I'll try the hulls. It'll be dumped otherwise. So if I can experiment and make it somewhat respectable, it'll be worth it.

 

[Tnuscan]

Wish you the best of luck!

 

[Tnuscan]

When you think you see a pattern, you should explore it, don't sweat it. I'd think if Hungarian Med toast barrels were acidifying wines, we'd figure out how to use it to our advantage.

Other than pH/TA changes through AF / MLF and CS, we shouldn't be seeing drastic changes in our wines pH/TA that we don't initiate. When one of those isn't responsible, I first suspect my chemicals, equipment, or process; is / was my meter clean and calibrated?; are / were my chems fresh?; did I make some goofy mistake reading something wrong?, did I add tartaric acid instead of sulfite?, were acid additions well mixed?, did I degas samples properly?, did I let my wine get cool and get a little CS action by mistake?, that sorta stuff. Even worse, is some nasty critter feeding on my acid? But you should be able to smell and taste that....

@Johnd My wine was moved from 72 to 59, a 13 degree difference. I have noticed some thin crystals on the bottom of the carboys, in both the Chambourcin and the Cynthiana. That shouldn't make that big of a pH drop. The Chambourcin and the Cynthiana pH's were real close at crush. The Cynthiana haven't gone into the barrel and they are @ 4.01 pH. I find this to be really odd, any way, I will keep whackin' away at them. Oh, and @Boatboy24 That's what happens when you run with scissors.

 

[Tnuscan]

@Boatboy24 Which of your Chilean wines turned out ok?

 

[Boatboy24]

@Boatboy24 Which of your Chilean wines turned out ok?

So far, none.

The Carmenere did finish MLF, though it has the same, nasty, sour taste as the others. I'll be pH testing the other 3 this weekend, and quite possibly giving all the K-bicarb treatment and moving them to the garage (I did the Cab on Wed night). Unfortunately, we have highs in the 60's for the next several days. We will have some cool nights though. So I'll try to get the temps down, then wrap the carboys in some moving blankets to stabilize temps a tad.

 

[geek]

Jim, at this point are you going by the pH alone and don't care about the TA? Just curiosity.

 

[AZMDTed]

So far, none.

The Carmenere did finish MLF, though it has the same, nasty, sour taste as the others. I'll be pH testing the other 3 this weekend, and quite possibly giving all the K-bicarb treatment and moving them to the garage (I did the Cab on Wed night). Unfortunately, we have highs in the 60's for the next several days. We will have some cool nights though. So I'll try to get the temps down, then wrap the carboys in some moving blankets to stabilize temps a tad.

This isn't giving me any confidence in buying Chilean juice buckets or grapes this spring.

 

[Johnd]

This isn't giving me any confidence in buying Chilean juice buckets or grapes this spring.

FWIW, I've had similar MLF problems with all three of my Chilean wines. They taste OK, but are still acidic and tart, none completed MLF after three separate MLB inoculations. This is only my opinion, but the sulfiting practices of getting fresh grapes back to the states, may increase the SO2 in the product, and difficulty in completing MLF. Coupled with the early picking/ high TA / low pH, my wines struggled.

Conversely, I purchased Grapemasters must from Spain, crushed, destemmed, and frozen in Spain, and then shipped frozen. These grapes, like the unsulfited frozen musts I've done from the States, rolled right through MLF and stand head and shoulders above the Chileans.

I'll be sticking with grapes that are processed and shipped frozen, as opposed to those that are sulfited and shipped whole before processing.

 

[AZMDTed]

Thanks John, good input.

 

[ceeaton]

This isn't giving me any confidence in buying Chilean juice buckets or grapes this spring.

Ted, I've never had issues with a Chilean batch, whether a white juice bucket or a red bucket with added lugs of grapes. At one point I had issues getting MLF to complete, but that was due to "operator error" since I wasn't mixing up the carboy on a regular basis. Once I did, MLF completed pretty quickly. At this point (not including my Fall batches from California), my Chilean batches have produced my best wine, in my humble opinion. Just had a bottle of Merlot/Cab Sauv/Malbec (April 2015) from my wine sanctuary, and it was especially tasty (I'll bring a bottle down when we eventually meet up). So don't let others' issues keep you from trying. Buckets from Harford are very affordable, so if they don't work you only lost the price of a cheapy kit (most buckets are around $56 or less for six gallons).

 

[AZMDTed]

Thanks Craig. Interesting. Maybe this spring I will start with baby steps. Get a couple lugs of grapes, squeeze and focus on the skins as an addition to my kits. After I get my hands dirty I can judge better for the fall harvest and what I may want to do with US grapes and juices. I'm looking forward to your visit along with whoever else is available to come by.

 

[Boatboy24]

Jim, at this point are you going by the pH alone and don't care about the TA? Just curiosity.

pH and taste. Neither are good.

 

[Tnuscan]

Makes me wish testing for Total SO2 were both cheaper and more accurate.

 

[Boatboy24]

Ted, don't lose faith on my account. I haven't nailed this down yet, and for all I know, it could be operator error. I have two other batches of Chilean reds that are decent, at a minimum.

 

[AZMDTed]

Ted, don't lose faith on my account. I haven't nailed this down yet, and for all I know, it could be operator error. I have two other batches of Chilean reds that are decent, at a minimum.

No worries, it's not just this. It's a combination of this and my available time, space, and equipment, etc. I will get there, baby steps first though I think is best for me now. I'd enjoy playing with fresh and frozen skins and maybe some fresh crushed juice from them as a substitute for part of the water addition in kits.

 

[Tnuscan]

@Johnd , @ceeaton , and any others that done the 2016 Chilean pails with added grapes, have any primary ferm. issues like H2S or sluggish/stressed ferments?

 

[Boatboy24]

@Tnuscan: had a brief issue w/ H2S early on, but a dose of nutrient took care of it pretty quickly. Other than that, and some green pepper notes in the Syrah (which is still there), the wines were quite good.

 

[Johnd]

@Johnd , @ceeaton , and any others that done the 2016 Chilean pails with added grapes, have any primary ferm. issues like H2S or sluggish/stressed ferments?

I haven't experienced any fermentation problems either, other than incomplete MLF, and that's been beat to death. I do feel like the Chilean grapes were picked a tad early, lowish BRIX, highish acid content, the same "green" taste that Jim references. I saw more green seeds than I would have liked. All in all, despite not completing MLF, my wines aren't bad. I tasted the Cab Sav and Malbec this weekend which are both halfway through barrel time, decently fruity, still a little astringent and green, but progressing just fine. I racked the 75/25 Cab/Malbec 3 gallon carboy and added sulfite and oak cubes, it also tastes pretty decent, no off flavors, the two one gallon Malbecs are fine too.

My (attempted) impartial assessment of my most recent grape wine batches, if you are interested, is that the Spring '16 Chilean wines are OK. The Fall '16 batches I did from Lanza (Cab Clone 169, Koch Cab, Petite Syrah, Merlot) and the Spanish must (Tempranillo and Merlot) are already better despite being younger.

 

[Tnuscan]

I haven't experienced any fermentation problems either, other than incomplete MLF, and that's been beat to death. I do feel like the Chilean grapes were picked a tad early, lowish BRIX, highish acid content, the same "green" taste that Jim references. I saw more green seeds than I would have liked. All in all, despite not completing MLF, my wines aren't bad. I tasted the Cab Sav and Malbec this weekend which are both halfway through barrel time, decently fruity, still a little astringent and green, but progressing just fine. I racked the 75/25 Cab/Malbec 3 gallon carboy and added sulfite and oak cubes, it also tastes pretty decent, no off flavors, the two one gallon Malbecs are fine too.

My (attempted) impartial assessment of my most recent grape wine batches, if you are interested, is that the Spring '16 Chilean wines are OK. The Fall '16 batches I did from Lanza (Cab Clone 169, Koch Cab, Petite Syrah, Merlot) and the Spanish must (Tempranillo and Merlot) are already better despite being younger.

Yes always interested in information on wines, can't get enough of it. Just wish I could retain it though, wouldn't photographic memory be a blessing.

I had felt they were early, I can't rememer hearing the seeds weren't ripe, that helps knowing that. I propably think too much on a lot of this stuff, I just really became interested in Jims thread.

I am satisified that this these was picked a little early, and received a little too much SO2. And like I said earlier, it would be nice to be able to check the total SO2, with something accurate and more affordable.

Thanks again!