Has anyone made "Orange" or amber white grape wine?

[Masbustelo]

With the fall harvest coming up I am thinking about making some "Orange" wine from LaCrescent grapes. Does anyone have experience with these wines or perhaps care to share comments or suggestions? In other words fermenting the white grapes on the skins and seeds.

 

[JohnT]

Orange / Amber?

If I am correct, I believe that these types of wines usually are either Ice Wine or late harvest??

Fermenting white wine on the skins will not necessarily make your wine either amber or orange. I feel that this is really a matter of how ripe the grapes are to begin with.

For me, fermenting white wine on the skins make the white wine too tannic (sharp/bitter). In fact, to minimize the amount of tannins in the white wine, I do not even crush/destem the grapes. I simply toss them into my press and squeeze.

 

[Masbustelo]

I really don't know anything about them, other than having read that sometimes they leave them on the skins and seeds for several months. They are sold commercially but I havent found much about how they are made.

 

[JohnT]

Do you have a specific wine in mind? Who makes this wine that you like?

 

[Masbustelo]

I had read this article a while back. I've never tasted them. http://www.winemag.com/2013/03/05/orange-wines-will-never-be-mainstream/

 

[JohnT]

OK,

I see what you are getting at...

They ferment on the skins, which will boost up the tannins, then age in a barrel to obtain some micro oxidation, flavor, and also color.

In years past, I have made batches of white that were macerated for about a week and never had a white wine turn orange. I am thinking that the barrel aging is most likely what gives the wine its color.

I have also found that skin maceration of white wines made the wine very tannic and bitter, qualities that most do not like in white wines. As a result, my white wines were not very popular with the family and I ended up doing less and less each year. Even without maceration, my whites continued to be overly tannic and bitter.

I then had a conversation with the lead winemaker at the Unionville winery (a great guy) and he advised that I should go with a "whole press" method. His thinking was that even the act of crushing/desteming white grapes can make a wine overly tannic. He said to try just simply tossing the whole clusters into the press and go "low and slow" with it. I took his advice and MAN was he right! The result was crisp, clean, and soft.

So, in short, the direction I am taking my whites is directly opposite of what you want to do..

I would say that I make white wines to suit MY tastes and not yours. I admit that the process you propose looks very interesting and I am curious. If you do try this, please let us know how you make out (pictures would be great).

Let me ask, have you ever tasted an orange wine? Did you like it?

 

[Johny99]

Normally rose is made by some skin contact then like a white. But, you have to have color in the skins or pulp. Some turn orange due to oxidation. Some consider it a fault, others a characteristic. Skin contact does bring tannins as noted and is the big challenge in rose for me.

I'm not familiar with the LaCrescent grape, but if it has some color to the skin or pulp, that could bring about the orange.

 

[Masbustelo]

John T I have not tried the commercial orange wines. I'm more intrigued by the process perhaps than anything. Would time ameliorate the tannins and bitterness? Like if they aged a couple of years?

 

[JohnT]

John T I have not tried the commercial orange wines. I'm more intrigued by the process perhaps than anything. Would time ameliorate the tannins and bitterness? Like if they aged a couple of years?

Time would definitely smooth the wine out some.

 

[REDRUM]

I have had a few commercial skin contact / 'orange' white wines (which are not necessarily actually orange). They seem to be rather fashionable at the moment. Some are pretty good and you can get some really interesting aromatics that you don't get with straightforward white wines, but for my tastes they can sometimes be a bit too funky or sour.
An 'orange' wine is to a normal white as a Belgian trappist ale is to a pilsener.

 

[Masbustelo]

REDRUM Would you say the sour part of these wines is related to pH/TA or perhaps being too dry?

 

[REDRUM]

I reckon in some cases it's the yeasts (often winemakers will do skin-contact whites with a 'wild ferment'). I have also read that white grape tannins themselves can often be really astringent.

 

[JohnT]

I have also read that white grape tannins themselves can often be really astringent.

They can and are. This is why are improvement steps were centered on limiting the exposure on our whites.

 

[ColemanM]

Masbustelo, are these going to be the pick your own grapes from IL that you'd be getting? If so, why not grab a pound or so of the Marquette and toss those in with your lacresent? Might change the color a bit and add a layer of complexity?

 

[Masbustelo]

Coleman I suppose I could.