High Ph after MLF

[sour_grapes]

Thanks, Stick! That was very interesting.

 

[Ajmassa]

“SO2 requirements
If the winemaker decides not to follow the charts above, he or she might just as well not add any SO2 at all, as it will not make much difference”

No sugarcoating it! Lol. Interesting to see the difference of opinion from as recently as 2012 in Stickmans post compared to now regarding high ph wines in the Purdue study.
I never realized that about the molecular levels/abv correlation either Fred.

I’m doin 95mph on the freeway with the top down and music blasting. Hope I don’t regret it! [emoji51]

Do you have any sulfite odor or flavor to the Cab!

Nope. Not as far as I could ever tell. I keep the cab in the barrel a little higher too. I’ll be blending all back together as well as adding maybe 10% of another wine (which has a 3.2 ph) before bottling soon. Im optimistic. After blending I should have about 10 cases of the wine so I sure hope it lasts more than 5 yrs!
Time will tell (abv is about 14% iirc)
So just like you said, first gotta decide if it stays or if can benefit from an adjustment. I just personally hate adjusting later. The couple times I did everything seemed fine at the time, but whether it was my taste buds that changed or the adjustments were accentuated with age, I ended up regretting it.

 

[Jeff Sparagana]

For sure. Looks like I am doing the same. Will probably do in the range of 80 ppm and hope for the best. This is a batch of straight Petit Sirah. Nothing to blend.

 

[Jeff Sparagana]

Will check SO2 level in a week.

 

[Ajmassa]

Who knows. Maybe you’ll luck out after testing a couple samples and find that a touch of tartaric improves it while dropping ph a click
This is by far what I dislike most about Cali grapes. The wines can be so high maintenance. And I notice the wines surfaces are much more prone to get “dirty” on my high ph wines as well.

 

[stickman]

What's interesting is that we already know from our own experience, that ML bacteria can be inhibited by some forms of bound so2, so the comment that "If the winemaker decides not to follow the charts above, he or she might just as well not add any SO2 at all", is not entirely accurate.

Another point in the Clark Smith article is noted below,
"Pigment-bound forms (of so2) differ from the aldehyde bisulfite complex (ABC) in that they are in rapid equilibrium with free SO2, and although they are included in FSO2 analysis as true free SO2, this is not actually the case. While these forms also inhibit malolactic fermentation as if they were free, they do not inhibit oxidative conversion by acetobacter of ethanol to acetic acid.5 Suppression of vinegar bacteria in red wine is entirely dependent on reductive strength."

So the point above is, even when maintaining a measured free so2 to achieve a proper molecular so2, that this is still ineffective for inhibiting acetobacter, they remain active in the wine and will be in competition with the wine for any oxygen that is provided, wine that has the ability to consume oxygen faster than the bacteria will have lower VA. Along these lines for example, oxygen being fed through a barrel is slow enough that the wine typically consumes it faster than it enters, dissolved oxygen concentration in the wine remains at or near 0 preventing acetobacter (always present) from thriving and generating VA, the point again is that it's not the so2 that's protecting the wine from acetobacter.

 

[mainshipfred]

What's interesting is that we already know from our own experience, that ML bacteria can be inhibited by some forms of bound so2, so the comment that "If the winemaker decides not to follow the charts above, he or she might just as well not add any SO2 at all", is not entirely accurate.

Another point in the Clark Smith article is noted below,
"Pigment-bound forms (of so2) differ from the aldehyde bisulfite complex (ABC) in that they are in rapid equilibrium with free SO2, and although they are included in FSO2 analysis as true free SO2, this is not actually the case. While these forms also inhibit malolactic fermentation as if they were free, they do not inhibit oxidative conversion by acetobacter of ethanol to acetic acid.5 Suppression of vinegar bacteria in red wine is entirely dependent on reductive strength."

So the point above is, even when maintaining a measured free so2 to achieve a proper molecular so2, that this is still ineffective for inhibiting acetobacter, they remain active in the wine and will be in competition with the wine for any oxygen that is provided, wine that has the ability to consume oxygen faster than the bacteria will have lower VA. Along these lines for example, oxygen being fed through a barrel is slow enough that the wine typically consumes it faster than it enters, dissolved oxygen concentration in the wine remains at or near 0 preventing acetobacter (always present) from thriving and generating VA, the point again is that it's not the so2 that's protecting the wine.

OK, read it and reread it several times. The last part of the last sentence says "it's not the SO2 that's protecting the wine". Is this referring to acetobacter only or the wine in general?

 

[stickman]

Acetobacter

 

[Jeff Sparagana]

Just racked. The wine tasted somewhat acidic probably from the pre fermentation acid addition to bring down PH. Raised SO2 to 80 ppm during racking. I also added 4 American oak Nadalie oak planks.

The wine is not Tannic and has a soft mouthfeel and beautiful color. I am hopeful the acid will relax over time with aging. Will test SO2 in a week to determine where it’s at.
Thanks all any feedback is welcome.
Jeff

 

[sour_grapes]

Ooooh, perhaps I will take a stroll to the basement and add my ~3 mos. dose of k-meta to my high-pH Syrah from grapes... No, no reason, just thinking it may be time...
YIKES!

 

[Jeff Sparagana]

Any thoughts on how to lower the acid level would be appreciated.
Jeff

 

[Ajmassa]

Any thoughts on how to lower the acid level would be appreciated.
Jeff

Well I’m no Joe Pro Winemaker so maybe some of the more chemistry knowledgeable members can offer more insight, but again, this is similar to my 2018 Paso grapes.
High ph. Wanted to lower it but adding acid did not improve the wine. And if anything needed LESS. But already high ph so zero wiggle room.
What I ended up doing was allowing it to naturally fall out with the lower winter temps. Not even cold stabilizing, just a couple months <60° in the basement. So whether it was temps or age or both, it fell into place nicely.

 

[Jeff Sparagana]

That is great news. Can’t get my wine room down to 60 but I can pipe in cool air.

Just a bit more info. I reduced ph pre fermentation with tartaric acid. Usually I use acidulated water but the Brix was 23.5 and not above 24.1 so I did not use the acidulated water just TA with a small amount of water. Only used about 1/4 of what the calculation called for and moved ph from 3.9 to 3.6.

now post MLF it is quite acidic. Go figure.
See chromatology test results. Only the middle carboy in the middle on the right may not be finished yet. Need to reduce the acid.
What should I do next.
Thanks

 

[cmason1957]

Only the middle carboy in the middle on the right may not be finished yet. Need to reduce the acid.
What should I do next.
Thanks

My advice, throw out the PH meter (well not completely) and tell me how it tastes. The numbers aren't the be all and end all of wine taste. I have tasted wines that had a PH of 3.2 TA of 1 and somehow they tasted flabby and like they needed more acid, as well as wines that had a ph of 4 and ta of .4 that were amazing. For me the numbers are important before fermentation, after taste is the be all and end all (and the numbers guide you on how much SO2 to have).

 

[Ajmassa]

What should I do next.
Thanks

My basement isn’t finished but it is heated. All I do is close the heat registers and allow the room to stay cool. Usually it’s right around 60° in the winter with some colder spells. Always end up with at least some sparkling sediment crystals. That plus another 6-8 months definitely let the wine dial in naturally.
I agree with @cmason1957 here. I would let it go and evaluate later on. The only decision now would be how to handle the demi that hasn’t finished mlf. Which is only about 15% of the total vol

 

[Jeff Sparagana]

My concern now is taste. Need to lower the acid. Will try naturally as I have time. Will not bottle til next November. Will cool my wine room and let it roll naturally for a while.
If sulfite the unfinished demjon MLF will stop.
Thanks for all the support.​

 

[stickman]

What happened to the rose that was pulled from this batch, did the pH hold in the rose? Pre-fermentation pH adjustment can be tricky, it usually takes a couple of days on the skins for the pH to stabilize. I'm not that familiar with Paso Robles grapes, though I hear they retain more acidity than many of the warmer growing regions. As the others have pointed out, time is needed to allow the co2 to blow off and the tartrates to drop, until then you'll be tasting more acid than what will remain in the finished wine.

 

[Jeff Sparagana]

The Rose also has high ph but tastes excellent. I fermented it separately.
I was hoping for 25 gallons of finished wine but did not get that much lots of sediment and leas with these grapes. First time I have used Paso Robles.
I have cool air blowing into my wine room from outside. Usually is around 70 degrees should get down to the low 60’s as it is cold outside here in PA. Today about 28 degrees.
Thanks for the help all
Jeff

 

[Mario Dinis]

I think the exact same thing as @NorCal after dealing with high pH grapes / wines for years. Just forget about the target numbers now, with a TA of 7.0, you could do damage to the taste pretty quickly shooting for a pH. If you determine through bench trials that your wine is best right where it is, then just manage the SO2 properly. If you don't have the red wine pH / free sulfite chart, here are the values near your current pH, at pH 4.0, your target sulfite level should be 80 ppm, pH 3.9 is about 65ppm, pH 3.8 is 50ppm, and pH 3.7 is 40ppm. I have quite a few higher pH wines that are almost 4 and doing just fine so far.

What about pH 3.44, what's the ideal SO2 level?

 

[mainshipfred]

What about pH 3.44, what's the ideal SO2 level?

Here are 2 different charts that measure about the same.