High Quality vs Low Quality Wine

[southlake333]

As someone that loves drinking cheap grocery store wine, making Skeeter Pee and fermenting frozen juice concentrate, I obviously understand very little about what makes a wine "good" or of "high quality". To me, if it tastes good, its good.

So I'm really curious as to what makes a wine "good", "high quality", "worth bragging about", etc. Obviously there are critics who's job is review wines and they must have some criteria they follow. Also there are lots of different styles of wines using different grapes from different areas around the world that go into the review but to me they are just "red flavor 1, red flavor 2, sweet red, red that puckered my butt cheeks, etc". In my mind its still just about taste.

I guess this also begs the question, what must I do to make an award winning wine? Press my own grapes, add dandelion and other unusual flavors for complexity, ferment at a constant 60%, age in oak barrels for 2 years, then add a complex looking label? Or just pop open some concentrates, set a bucket in the kitchen, add yeast, then sweeten when done?

Just a random thought I had that I figured I would pose to the masses.

 

[robie]

What is a "good" wine can be very subjective of course - a matter of personal opinion.

However, there are "generalized opinions of the masses" where many agree concerning what tastes good. Like - many people enjoy Cab/Sav wine but fewer like wine made from Welches grape juice concentrate. Neither opinion is wrong.

To make an award winning wine, one has to take under consideration the opinion of the judges, who are going to taste and rate the wine. Regardless of your own opinion, it is not going to win an award if they don't like it.

To come up with such a wine, I suppose one has to think and taste in a more generalized manner. (What would the wine judges think of my wine?) I would look for award-winning recipes of the types of wines you enjoy making. Make these, then look for ways to improve the recipes - in a manner pleasing to potential judges of course.

Take a similar approach for kit wines. I would go to Wine Maker Magazine and see what kits did well in the last contest they had.

 

[winemaker_3352]

First off let me say - If you like the wine you make - stay with it. That is all that really matters in the end.

You can send the same bottle of wine to 2 different competitions and get totally different results depending on the judges.

There are a lot of things we can't do as homewinemakers that big commerial wineries can do.

Some things that we can do that I have noticed that definitely help the flavor and aromas are:

Cold soaking grapes prior to fermentation (maceration)
Cold Fermentation (Whites and fruits only)
Constant temps during aging
Bulk aging with a little oak
Keeping your sugar and acids in line with what type of wine you are making
Keep the ABV reasonable - to high will mask any and most all flavors and aromas
Time

 

[DoctorCAD]

First, forget sweetening. No good wine is sweet (IMO). The drier the better.

Second, red's only. No good wine is white (IMO). The darker the better.

Third, Low alcohol. No good wine is hot (IMO). The milder the better.

See, there CAN't be a "better" wine because we all want something different. I detest muscidine, but lots of people love it. Can there be a high-quality muscidine? Not to me, but surly there is one somewhere.

Make what you like and share it with friends. If they like it, there you go...a high quality wine!

 

[Dugger]

As has been said, determining "good" wine is quite subjective.
For me it has also changed over the years. The first wines I made were smaller kits and sweetened with conditioner and I thought they were great. I tasted some good quality wine also at that time but didn't like the taste at all. Over the years my tastes have changed and I can only satisfy that now with the bigger kits that give you more taste and more body. The body becomes more important to me and I suppose it's like starting with a milkshake that is thin but tastes good and then you have one that tastes about the same but is thicker and smoother and then you're hooked.
The professional tasters probably look for the proper balance of sugars, tannins and acids which results in a quality wine and that is what grape wine makers strive for; I stick mostly to kits so that part is already done but it's still the quality (and thus price) of the ingredients that make the difference.
It still comes down to personal preference but I would expect most people's choices change over time.

 

[Runningwolf]

I think this is always a very interesting topic. I agree with all the posts, it's what you, your spouse and friends all like. Another twist to this is what constitutes the very high price we pay for some of this wine. I understand some wine is more labor intensive then others and they are stored for long periods in barrels but does it still justify the price?

Take Two Buck Chuck for instance that now sells for about three bucks. A well liked wine. What if this wine had a different label and was properly marketed, what do you think it could sell for. Look at the other wines it has competed against and placed higher in awards.

 

[JohnT]

I agree with all of these posts.

It is a matter of tastes.

For example, I had someone taste one of my award winners and they almost choked. They were used to rather sweet wines and the one I gave them was bone dry.

Some like concord grapes (no surprise that I am bringing this up!). Some do not (could say something here). Opinions of wine are like grains of sand. There are so many of them. Are they right? Are they wrong? Well, it all depends on who is doin da sippin.

That said, if you are looking to make wine that holds up well in competitions, then that is a different story. There are certian characteristics that most UC Davis judges look for. This does change within the varieties. If this is what you are after, then I suggest that you turn to the better comercial wineries and start tasting them. Get in your mind what the differences are between your wine ant theirs, then adjust your process accordingly.

 

[Brew and Wine Supply]

The best wine in the world is the one you like the best!

 

[southlake333]

Another twist to this is what constitutes the very high price we pay for some of this wine. I understand some wine is more labor intensive then others and they are stored for long periods in barrels but does it still justify the price?

That is a very good question and part of what I was wondering. I always assumed the high price meant something special was done to the wine. But maybe its more supply/demand. Hmm...does that mean if I make a limited 30 bottle supply they should be worth $1000 each??

 

[Noontime]

Interesting question...I would say the criteria that makes a good wine are 1)balance- the acid, sugar, tannin, alcohol, oak, etc should all be appropriate with no one thing going way overboard, 2) no faults- brett, vinegar, gassy, cloudy, etc 3) fidelity- should taste like the grape, fruit, etc (merlot should taste like merlot, and a peach wine that tastes like pumpkin pie might be delicious, but would appear to be just a happy accident). Everything is subjective though, so even the before mentioned criteria and all other qualities are open to personal interpretation.

As far as competitions...what I've heard is, if you enter enough wines in enough competitions, you'll eventually win something. I think this illustrates what others have said about it just has to appeal to the individual judges tastes.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

I can't resist, I tried not commenting but to no avail. The original question was what makes a great wine. Now we can hide behind the reasoning that whatever you like is great. If so there is no need to discuss this further. But as winemakers who want to make better wine or great wine then the discussion has to go beyond this. So I guess you have to decide whether you really want to have that conversation or not. I surely know how I have made better wine since I started and people who drink my wine agree. Southlake333 asks was something special done to the wine? Let's start with the grapes.
Malvina

 

[JohnT]

Interesting question...I would say the criteria that makes a good wine are 1)balance- the acid, sugar, tannin, alcohol, oak, etc should all be appropriate with no one thing going way overboard, 2) no faults- brett, vinegar, gassy, cloudy, etc 3) fidelity- should taste like the grape, fruit, etc (merlot should taste like merlot, and a peach wine that tastes like pumpkin pie might be delicious, but would appear to be just a happy accident). Everything is subjective though, so even the before mentioned criteria and all other qualities are open to personal interpretation.

As far as competitions...what I've heard is, if you enter enough wines in enough competitions, you'll eventually win something. I think this illustrates what others have said about it just has to appeal to the individual judges tastes.

a couple of things...

1) where are you in DelRay Beach? We have a place on South Ocean Blvd.

2) you are right on competitions. I have seen some that prefer what I call "country wines" and I have seen those that are more of the european tradition. In fact, I have seen a skeeter pee take "best in show" in one competition. Still, if your wine has significant flaws, I doubt that it will ever win a medal in any competition.

 

[robie]

That is a very good question and part of what I was wondering. I always assumed the high price meant something special was done to the wine. But maybe its more supply/demand. Hmm...does that mean if I make a limited 30 bottle supply they should be worth $1000 each??

Like trying to justify the price of some of the French Bordeaux and Burgundian wines. They are good, but not THAT good. What's in a name?

Consider the 1976 Paris wine competition between American and French wines. IMO, the judges were more interested in identifying the French wines, so they could rate them higher. They couldn't tell which was French. so they resorted to determining which wines were the better wines, taste, color, and aroma-wise. Surely these would be the French wines... WRONG!!! Stage's Leap won in the red Bordeaux (Cab/Sav) and Chateau Montelena won in the chardonnays.

Pretty mucht he same outcome when they repeated a similar contest 30 years later.

These days, Robert Parker has set a trend toward more fruit forward, higher alcohol wines. If a winery don't cow toe to make his style, it can become doomed in the industry. It doesn't seem to matter what anyone else likes. As a result of his influence, lots of judges tend to favor the same style. Like it or not, but that doesn't have to influence your own taste, but just what you take to competition.

 

[dangerdave]

Consider the 1976 Paris wine competition between American and French wines. IMO, the judges were more interested in identifying the French wines, so they could rate them higher. They couldn't tell which was French. so they resorted to determining which wines were the better wines, taste, color, and aroma-wise. Surely these would be the French wines... WRONG!!! Stage's Leap won in the red Bordeaux (Cab/Sav) and Chateau Montelena won in the chardonnays.

I always love that story! I repeat it often to those who still think the French make the best wines.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

The Price in some cases is determined not only by the quality, this is true. But they are THAT good! And so are the best of California. Some say better. I think there was a time that Parker had the level of influence you describe but I think it has been on the wain for some time. It still does not answer the question what makes a great wine.
Malvina

 

[robie]

The Price in some cases is determined not only by the quality, this is true. But they are THAT good! And so are the best of California. Some say better. I think there was a time that Parker had the level of influence you describe but I think it has been on the wain for some time. It still does not answer the question what makes a great wine.
Malvina

I hear you. We are coming right back to personal opinion and that is a fact, a good fact. The that is THAT can easily translate into $1000+ per bottle. IMPO, that is not THAT good. But people all over the world, every day pay those prices for a bottle of wine, so THAT is still true for many. And THAT is OK.

 

[robie]

I always love that story! I repeat it often to those who still think the French make the best wines.

I read the book about it - Judgement of Paris. There is a lot of argument about whether or not they compared apples to apples (at least the French are making the argument). I believe if they had compared some of the 20 to 25 year old Bordeaux reds to the American reds, the results might have been different. But then they would have been comparing an American 2 to 4 year old to a French 25 year old and how apples-to-apples would that have been?

By the way, that books is an excellent book. Only about the first 1/3 of the book covers the competition, the rest is very insightful concerning wines and terrior all over the world. It goes into how, because of the results of the competition wine regions got a boost and better start all over the world. Very good book!

 

[JohnT]

The Price in some cases is determined not only by the quality, this is true. But they are THAT good! And so are the best of California. Some say better. I think there was a time that Parker had the level of influence you describe but I think it has been on the wain for some time. It still does not answer the question what makes a great wine.
Malvina

A certain level of quality is required for a premium wine, however, once you get to that plateau, the price of wine is mostly determined by economics and what the public (at large) is willing to pay.

A couple of cases in point..

1) Opus one (approx $175 per bottle). This is grown on the Mondavi estates. The Opus vinyard abuts the vines used for the Modavi Cab Reserve ($35 per bottle). Both are made the exact same way. why so much more for the Opus? Because Rothchild's profile is on the label.

2) Louis Martini (about $30/Bottle). a good description is "Gallo with a fancy label". Gallo had come to power just after prohibition when Americans simply did not know a whole lot about wine. The reputation of the Gallo brand was they made cheap, low quality wine. Several attempts were made by Ernest and Julio to tap into the premium wine market using the Gallo name. Quality simply did not matter. The Brand was just not selling. They ended up purchasing other wineries just so they could sell their premuim wines.

So most expensive premium wines are expensive because people want them and are willing to pay the set price. Does this mean that the wine is any better? Well, quite frankly, not always. A premium wine is a premium wine. In many cases, the price difference between a $40/bottle wine and a $150/bottle wine is not worth the $110.00.

 

[Noontime]

Southlake333 asks was something special done to the wine? Let's start with the grapes.
Malvina

Absolutely...the difference between good wines and great wines is most likely going to be the ingredients...grapes and yeast. So many quotes out there about "wine is made in the vineyard" and I wish I could remember the one that goes something like, "if you leave the wine alone, and don't screw anything up, it'll take care of itself". I know that was a terrible misquote; basically if you start with great ingredients, the rest is just husbandry.

 

[JohnT]

Absolutely...the difference between good wines and great wines is most likely going to be the ingredients...grapes and yeast. So many quotes out there about "wine is made in the vineyard" and I wish I could remember the one that goes something like, "if you leave the wine alone, and don't screw anything up, it'll take care of itself". I know that was a terrible misquote; basically if you start with great ingredients, the rest is just husbandry.

IMHO, Close, but not entirely true.

It is true that it is almost impossible to make good wine out of bad fruit, the opposite is NOT true, just because you have good fruit does not mean that you will automatically end up with good wine. I find that winemaking is never a simple matter of husbandry. There are THOUSANDS of decisions you can make to influence the end product.