High Quality vs Low Quality Wine

[MalvinaScordaad]

Absolutely...the difference between good wines and great wines is most likely going to be the ingredients...grapes and yeast. So many quotes out there about "wine is made in the vineyard" and I wish I could remember the one that goes something like, "if you leave the wine alone, and don't screw anything up, it'll take care of itself". I know that was a terrible misquote; basically if you start with great ingredients, the rest is just husbandry.

If we assume good wine making practice not necessarily esoteric methods or extreme measures the single most factor that makes great wine are the grapes.
And what is somewhat of a paradox is the better the grapes the easier it is to make great wine than it is to make average wine from average grapes. Not such a terrible quote at all and it is proven when working with the best fruit. In my experience I have never had an easier time making wine using superior fruit. There is no comparison to the effort required making a decent wine from marginal fruit. Actually you can get pretty lazy when using premium fruit there is much less to adjust and the parameters are such that it takes care of itself without large additions of acid , sugar and other additives to make up for shortcomings. Make some wine from premium fruit and you will understand why the prices of expensive wine is what it is. It is not all hype far from it.
Malvina

 

[Noontime]

there are THOUSANDS of decisions you can make to influence the end product.

Ahhh...but is there any proof that makes better wine?

There's a part of me that agrees with you John, but it's such an interesting debate. Even the big boys like Randall Grahm from Bonny Doon can't decide whether to be an interventionalist winemaker or not.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

People have a wrong impression as to the differences of fruit and the quality of that fruit that exists even from the same vineyard. To say that grapes are the same because they came off a particular vineyard is misleading. Not all grapes are created equally even in vineyards that produce the highest priced fruit. Growing is tailored for the user and the use in many cases. Dropping Crop, thinning, total crop load and other factors in growing also determine the price and quality of grapes even from the same vineyard. To say a 40 dollar bottle is the same as a 100 dollar bottle just because it came from the same vineyard is a mistake.
Malvina

 

[JohnT]

People have a wrong impression as to the differences of fruit and the quality of that fruit that exists even from the same vineyard. To say that grapes are the same because they came off a particular vineyard is misleading. Not all grapes are created equally even in vineyards that produce the highest priced fruit. Growing is tailored for the user and the use in many cases. Dropping Crop, thinning, total crop load and other factors in growing also determine the price and quality of grapes even from the same vineyard. To say a 40 dollar bottle is the same as a 100 dollar bottle just because it came from the same vineyard is a mistake.
Malvina

Malvina,

The opus and mondavi grapes share the same, flat vineyard. They are pruned, watered, and otherwise cared for in exactly the same maner. They are so identical that scammers have taken empty Opus bottles, and refilled them with mondavi cab reserve.

If grapes are grown together, farmed together, harvested together, in exactly the same soil, sun, and climate, and the wine is produced using the exact same process, then the differences (and I agree that there may be some) will be minute.

So the question is this. Are the minute differences worth the drastic difference in price? IMHO, they are not.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

John you jump to a conclusion as to their worth. But you are wrong about what you call grapes that are grown together, etc. For example Beckstoffer Vineyards are grown to a specific contract per acre. First there are certain blocks and rows and then the buyer is given the opportunity to tailor how the grapes will be farmed. This accounts in a wide difference in fruit price per ton in the same vineyard. If a Winemaker pays up to four times the price for certain grapes in the same vineyard do you think he can tell the difference? And do you think he does this for no reason? In the end it translates to high priced wine. You can determine whether you think it is worth it or not but that is not really the point of the discussion. The question should be if you had the grapes in question would you make a great wine from them.
Malvina

 

[JohnT]

John you jump to a conclusion as to their worth. But you are wrong about what you call grapes that are grown together, etc. For example Beckstoffer Vineyards are grown to a specific contract per acre. First there are certain blocks and rows and then the buyer is given the opportunity to tailor how the grapes will be farmed. This accounts in a wide difference in fruit price per ton in the same vineyard. If a Winemaker pays up to four times the price for certain grapes in the same vineyard do you think he can tell the difference? And do you think he does this for no reason? In the end it translates to high priced wine. You can determine whether you think it is worth it or not but that is not really the point of the discussion. The question should be if you had the grapes in question would you make a great wine from them.
Malvina

Malvina,

My point is the case of Mondavi VS opus. I understand that if the farming technique is different, and yeilds change, then prices and quality can differ. My point is this is not always the case. A LOT of the price of wine is simply determined by the label slapped on the bottle (like the case of Opus and Modavi). Is this an "across-the-board" fact? No it is not always the case.

I believe that the initial debate was over the price charged by wine and its cause. In a lot of cases, the price of wine is much less determined by quality and much more determined by marketing.

I do agree with you that quality grapes CAN make quality wine. This, however, is not assured.

Do a blind tasting of Opus and Modavi Reserve Cab and see if you can spot a big difference that can justify the price. Trust me, I doubt that you can.

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

Malvina,

My point is the case of Mondavi VS opus. I understand that if the farming technique is different, and yeilds change, then prices and quality can differ. My point is this is not always the case. A LOT of the price of wine is simply determined by the label slapped on the bottle (like the case of Opus and Modavi). Is this an "across-the-board" fact? No it is not always the case.

I believe that the initial debate was over the price charged by wine and its cause. In a lot of cases, the price of wine is much less determined by quality and much more determined by marketing.

I do agree with you that quality grapes CAN make quality wine. This, however, is not assured.

Do a blind tasting of Opus and Modavi Reserve Cab and see if you can spot a big difference that can justify the price. Trust me, I doubt that you can.

John the initial debate was "So I'm really curious as to what makes a wine "good", "high quality", "worth bragging about", etc" So I think we are talking about what we as Winemakers think what makes great wine not whether you think some wine you mention is worth it or not. It was my first suggestion we start with the grapes.
Malvina

 

[JohnT]

That is a very good question and part of what I was wondering. I always assumed the high price meant something special was done to the wine. But maybe its more supply/demand. Hmm...does that mean if I make a limited 30 bottle supply they should be worth $1000 each??

Malvina, This is what I was addressing.

 

[joeswine]

Question without-------------------

THIS IS A QUESTION WITHOUT A REAL ENDING.

 

[Midwest Vintner]

I always love that story! I repeat it often to those who still think the French make the best wines.

You guys realize that they tried this again with the same wine, 30 years later??? They also did other events between that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgment_of_Paris_(wine)

The best wine will depend highly on the occasion AND the consumer. I have drank $30+ dollar bottles that were not as good as an $8 bottle.

The whole question relies on opinion, so "best" will be what that person likes. IMO, the cheaper the better! lol.

 

[JohnT]

I assume that you guys have read George Taber's account on that event. But, just in case the rest of you have not, here is the Amazon link.

If you only have seen the movie "bottle shock", there was a bit of "creative license" to make the movie more entertaining. This book gives the more true account.

I especially like the fact that (after the results were announced) the french judges demanded that Steven Spurrier surrender the score cards. Naturally, Steven refused. They were that embarrassed and felt that they wanted to make sure that noone in France knew the individuals that voted for the American wines. They saw that their reputations were at stake.

http://www.amazon.com/Judgment-Paris-California-Historic-Revolutionized/dp/0743297326/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343321688&sr=8-1&keywords=George+Taber

 

[MalvinaScordaad]

There are things a Winemaker can do to make a great wine. I thought the interest in discussion would be in that vein. If everyone wants to talk about the price of a bottle then it really is a different conversation. It seems this is the case here. Actually Joe it is a question that has not even been discussed.
Malvina

 

[JohnT]

Threads are like being in a hot air baloon. One simply goes where the wind takes you.

 

[Bartman]

I believe there are two legitimate but distinct questions here: (1) what winemaking factor(s) (fruit, additions, process, etc.) make(s) great wine 'great' (or conversely, what makes poor wine 'poor') and (2) how do buyers and sellers justify ridiculously high commercial prices of certain wines compared to other similar wines?

The first question is probably unresolvable because almost all of it is personal opinion (even 'poor' fruit can make good wine...if it's your own homegrown 'poor' fruit ), although the extremely bad/toxic wines might be universally agreed. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, right?

But the second question is somewhat more susceptible to objective analysis: while it is still entirely your opinion (however unconsciously you may be affected by Robert Parker's numerology) how good a particular wine is, the prices that are charged/paid/auctioned foris largely a matter of economics and supply/demand. Supply of 'great wines' will always be limited, by definition, but demand is subject to popular press, technical expert opinions, marketing, etc., in the same way fine art is. Why do we all anticipate the values of an artist's works will increase immediately after his death - the finished pieces are no different from one day to the next, but the public perception has changed, and therefore the market value change as well. Same thing for wine- it is not always intrinsic value of the wine, but simply what the 'market' says it is worth.

I recall a 1999 story of a steakhouse in Dallas (Three Forks), which was only a few years old at the time, that had an extensive and expensive winelist, topped by a $35,000 bottle of 1926 Chateau Haut-Brion. The owner/general manager was not a wine connoisseur and had simply bought and offered wines that someone else had recommended to him. A patron ordered it to celebrate a good year for his business but he and his guests complained it was 'spoiled' and sent it back. A I recall, there was outsider speculation that it wasn't spoiled, but simply 75 years old and concentrated to a thicker consistency than your typical Barefoot Cabernet. Since the owner admitted he had no understanding of what wine 'should' taste like (young or old), he ended up 'eating' it. Can a bottle be worth $35,000, and is that strictly a question of personal opinion in a business/retail setting? I'd say yes, the 'market value' *can* be that high or higher, but the agreed upon price is *the* price, regardless of your later opinion - "caveat emptor" isn't totally forgotten, is it?

 

[southlake333]

Some things that we can do that I have noticed that definitely help the flavor and aromas are:

Cold soaking grapes prior to fermentation (maceration)
Cold Fermentation (Whites and fruits only)
Constant temps during aging
Bulk aging with a little oak
Keeping your sugar and acids in line with what type of wine you are making
Keep the ABV reasonable - to high will mask any and most all flavors and aromas
Time

The professional tasters probably look for the proper balance of sugars, tannins and acids which results in a quality wine and that is what grape wine makers strive for; I stick mostly to kits so that part is already done but it's still the quality (and thus price) of the ingredients that make the difference.

I think these 2 posts really answered my question but thanks to everyone for their input. Obviously personal taste accounts for a lot, branding exponentially increases pricing as well as supply and demand. But overall, having a clear, balanced wine with the right amount of sweetness, body, aroma, acid, etc for the style is probably what matters most in a determining wine quality. That being the case, any of us home winemaker's should be fully capable of making the highest quality wines.

Now if only I could grow some high quality stuff in my tiny suburban backyard.

 

[robie]

Sorry we get off topic. One thing leads to another and... Staying precisely on topic is not something we are good at.

To make a better wine, one has to decide just what "a better wine" really is.

We have already discussed the fact that what one person enjoys in a wine is not always agreed upon by everyone.

Do you want to make the wine that tastes best to you and you don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks?

Do you want to make a wine that lots of other folks like, even if you don't like that wine yourself?

Do you want to try and win a prize/ribbon for your wine at a contest?

All these are considerations.

Do you want a white wine, a red, or a rose?

A sweet wine or a dry one?

How long do you want to age the wine before you drink or show it? Whites and roses generally are ready sooner.

One way to potentially improve your wine is to select a yeast strain that brings out the qualities you are looking for in a wine. Here is a yeast chart I have used for a long time. See if there is anything in it in which you might be interested.
http://www.morewinemaking.com/public/pdf/wyeastpair.pdf

Next, you have to make sure the wine turns out its best by not doing anything that might cause volatile acid, oxidation, or anything else that might ruin your wine. So, you need to understand and practice good wine making methods. Best way to learn is to read, ask questions, read more, and make some wine.

The little "tricks" are probably what you are after. There are things you can do to improve your wine, most of them are in baby steps; one step may not make a huge difference but several of them together just may make a big difference. As mentioned, yeast selection is one of them. Learning these, again, takes reading, time, and experience.

Have realistic expectations. A kit wine is never going to revile a Penfold Grange, no matter how hard you try. A wine from an ultra premium kit will typically make a better end result than an inexpensive $50 kit will. (I'll probably hear it for saying that!!!) Though it can be done, don't expect a wine from kit to revile the same variety of wine from fresh grapes. Along the same lines, it is not likely you will have access to the quality of fresh grapes in order to make something as good as a Penfold Grange. They just don't sell them and there is nothing you can do to duplicate them.

This could go on for many more pages. First, answer some of the questions from above; that's a start. Just understand that the end results is generally limited by many things, like quality of grapes, equipment available, sanitation practices, and experience.

You need to educate your palate, so you really do know when you have just tasted a very nice wine. I can't give you all the types of fruit I taste and smell in a wine, but I sure can tell you when I have tasted a wine I really like.

One thing I do to help educate my palate is to go to as many wine tastings as I possibly can. This way you can taste 4 or 5 nice bottles of wine without having to purchase them.

I don't know if this helps you. So, start asking questions. Someone on here should be able to answer them.

 

[southlake333]

topped by a $35,000 bottle of 1926 Chateau Haut-Brion...Can a bottle be worth $35,000, and is that strictly a question of personal opinion in a business/retail setting? I'd say yes, the 'market value' *can* be that high or higher, but the agreed upon price is *the* price, regardless of your later opinion - "caveat emptor" isn't totally forgotten, is it?

It does make sense that aging should have an effect on price. Its not cheap to keep bottles safe for years and years. The older one is, the more rare it would be...unless is was just old because it was nasty and no one wanted it...lol.

 

[southlake333]

Next, you have to make sure the wine turns out its best by not doing anything that might cause volatile acid, oxidation, or anything else that might ruin your wine.

Since wine is so subjective, beyond making sure you have the right balance, etc (see earlier post), this makes the most sense to me. Basically, use good ingredients, balance all the attributes and don't spoil your creation. Then in the end if it tastes good its high quality. Sounds fairly simple!

 

[robie]

Since wine is so subjective, beyond making sure you have the right balance, etc (see earlier post), this makes the most sense to me. Basically, use good ingredients, balance all the attributes and don't spoil your creation. Then in the end if it tastes good its high quality. Sounds fairly simple!

You got it, JJ!!! It's all a matter of doing and learning. Every time you make a batch, you will get better at all of the above.

 

[JohnT]

Robie,

Here, Here! very well put. But, if I may, let me expand on what you were saying about the price of wine...

Case in point: The Billionairs Vinegar..

The highest price (on record) was $156,000 by Ted Turner. This wine was believed to be from a newly discovered stash of wine owned by Thomas Jefferson.

The price paid had NOTHING to do with the quality of the wine. It had everything to do with a "ThJ" etched on the bottle. Parker not withstanding, the price of wine has so much more to do with a wine producer's reputation and marketing.

Even a poor Chateau Lafite Rothschild can command a high price when compared to a great Penfolds. Plain and simple, price is determined by what the consumer is willing to pay.