Hole is dug for our new wine cellar

[Runningwolf]

I agree. I would not want to spray the inside and lose space. Why do you go inside to check the temp? I bought a wireless remote outdoor thermometer for in my freezer and I always know the temp without going in it.Go pick one up at walmart for less than $20. You could even get a wired one and hang it up outside the door and just close the door on the wire. Remote is the better way.

Are you sure you have a case against the contractor? You said you handed him a bunch of notes from people you don't know and don't know there backgrounds, Did you have a written contract with him showing the exact specifications? Or did you do everything on a handshake and he deliver the main product as asked. The entire project seemed a little rushed to me. I'm just going off of what you posted and there may be documentation you didn't mention.

 

[Sammyk]

We contacted him back in late January or some time in February. I would have to go back and check my posts. It was to be completed in March when we typically reach 80 degrees. We had a much colder spring than normal, the coldest on record with a frost on Mother's Day. So time was on his side.
One stipulation was the cellar was to have 3' of dirt on all sides. All research said a minium of 3' of dirt. As I mentioned the front only has about 8 inches of dirt on top and the temperature sensor gun confirms that is where the problem.

Not contract, just a gentleman's agreement so to speak. But I do have documentation of the email I sent that said all sides would have a minimum of 3' of dirt on all sidea.

At this point we are not concerned about loosing space inside but more concerned about the temperature inside and 71 degrees is not acceptable. We have plenty of room inside and are willing to give up that space to get the desired temperature which is mid 60's.

Can we achieve the desired temperature? I don't know until I contact contractors who do spray foam in the morning.

We could have saved a bunch of money by going with out first option to air condition the upstairs bedroom with an window air-conditioner and sealing that room shut. We thought long term the cellar was the best solution.

 

[Sammyk]

Dan we did buy a wireless remote thermometer and it would not pick up the temperature in the cellar. Maybe all the dirt made the difference? Whatever it does not work and will not pick up the cellar temperature. So the heat sensing gun as suggested here was a better option.

 

[Julie]

Even without a contract and just a "Gentleman's Agreement" you as a consumer do have rights, especially with the documentation you have but I know all you want is to have this completed. Just remember you can report this company to the Better Business Bureau.

 

[pjd]

My reservations about this project started with your very first post.

We had an offer we could not refuse!

Offers that you cannot refuse usually mean they cannot deliver what is promised. As a contractor who has a reputation that is unmarred, it is frustrating when jobs go to the lowest bidder only because he was the cheapest. My experience is you get what you pay for.

I really am not bitter about this because the low priced contractors are just building inventory of projects for me to fix!

 

[DaveL]

Instead of rairoad ties on top perhaps stacking landscape stones to allow for more dirt. Place some bushes in front of the new hill. OR your the water feature guy right Put a pond on top with a cascading water feature down the front and around the side to a pond in the back yard. Then write the whole thing off as a business expense after you take a few pics and post them
Another idea. Drill a hole in the lower pond dawn as deep as you can sink a pipe with a lining to cool the water. Then pump it back to the top from the bottom of the pipe.

 

[whackfol]

You've invested a lot. Before moving forward with anything short of a simple cheap try, I suggest hiring an engineer to evaluate the heat load and make suggestions. You'll probably save time and money.

 

[seth8530]

Did someone say engineer!?

Meh, lol not like Nuke E's know anything about insulation.

Pretty much, the story that we all know is that you do not have enough thermal insulation and now you have to deal with it one way or the other. The question is how do you plan on doing that.

 

[Sammyk]

He was a former neighbor but still lives fairly close to us and the part of the deal was a barter that was approved by our CPA, on the up and up and completely legal. We do a lot of bartering with both our attorney and our CPA because we have a desirable product.

We plan to call spray foam contractors today and see what we can come up with. Our thoughts are a good layer of foam on the exposed outside areas and the walls and ceiling inside. We would have the railroad ties sprayed too if possible because of the smell of the creosote. Don't know for sure until we get some quotes.

 

[Runningwolf]

Spray foam is effected by uv rays and should not be exposed to sunlight. At least in the past.

 

[seth8530]

If it is that could be fixed by first putting a reflector on top of the foam right?

 

[FABulousWines]

You sure are getting a lot of help on this project, Sammy! I really can't add anything more useful but just wanted to say, I do hope you get it worked out to your satisfaction.

I am still thinking about what I want to do. Unfortunately the only hilly part of our lot is the front yard and I think the HOA would have something to say about that, LOL.

 

[jswordy]

As a contractor who has a reputation that is unmarred, it is frustrating when jobs go to the lowest bidder only because he was the cheapest. My experience is you get what you pay for.

Let me categorically say that price has absolutely no relationship to quality of work. I know this through my own experience. That is why things get done so slowly on my place - I do as many of them myself as I can so they are done right!

Again, there is near-zero relationship between price quoted or paid and the quality of the resulting job. None. For my roof, for example, spec'ed it carefully and I chose a locally recommended roofing company that came in with the highest bid. They damaged my soffits. Got them to fix that with delays. Then it started to rain. It leaked. They waited 2 rainy weeks to come out to fix the leak, which was major. Water was pouring out from inside my soffits. By then, I had already crawled up on top and fixed it myself where their slipshod work was deficient. This was a metal roof! Should never have leaked. NEVER!

Then there was my shop, which I builtall myself except the floor. I had that poured by a well-recommended concrete contractor. Even the concrete company said he was good. It cracked before it was even dry and I found myself topping it to eliminate low spots and defects. I can go on and on with my experiences, which is why I do as damn much as I can myself. If I do hire it done, I never pick the lowest bidder. But I have learned the hard and painful way that price is irrelevant. A high-paid jack-leg performs as poorly as a low-paid one, he just gets more for it.

The roofer's pay was withheld and they got a letter from my lawyer. Which brings me to my second point. If you want satisfaction, do not pay a dime and GET A LAWYER!

Sammy, I would not settle for an air conditioned room, which is not near as good on several fronts as passive cooling. I would make that thing right, the way I wanted it to be. The solutions have been offered. All you have to do is pick one. If it were me, I'd scrape back, insulate the fire out of it, then add dirt with the retaining wall in front. If you put 6" of rigid board on top and upper sides and you cover with 2 feet of dirt, I'll bet that does it.

I'd take my heat gun and measure the heat after adding all that foam board, before backfilling. Betcha the foam alone makes a huge diff.

Far as the humidity, as I said early on, it's gonna be high. That's why even storm shelters have a vent. You can add a power line and dehumidifier to take care of that if you wish.

Ideas...pix... http://www.houzz.com/underground-wine-cellar

 

[Sammyk]

We found the heat source!

The dehumidifier was a source of heat! Once we turned off the dehumidifier we lost a few degrees of heat.

They make bags to hang in closets where humidity is a problem. I can't remember what they are called but we will pick up some tomorrow. As it collects the humidity the bag fills with water. Then you throw them away and replace. Not expensive at all.

Let me tell you how much we love that darn heat sensing gun!

WE found the culprit for the heat source. The Railroad ties! The heat sensing gun showed 150 degrees in many places EXCEPT where we had the tarp for shade. We have 2 tarps up for a temporary solution. The rr ties under the tarp were 80 degrees. So to shade on the front side the south side seems the logical thing.

The thing about the rr ties, we hated them from the start, hated the look and hated the smell. We were going to try to stucco the ties in the fall when it is cooler. The rr ties were never in the "deal" to begin with. He brought them in and had his crew install them while we were gone. By the time we got home, they had a good start on them and since they had been cut, there was no returning them.

We will ask at Lowe's tomorrow about a paint that will work on the ties. Or we will buy light colored canvas and drape it over the ties as a temporary fix.

I did talk to a foam spray installer and was shocked at the price. He did suggest insulation foam on the inside when I told him what we were trying to accomplish. So we plan to buy the foam core sheets tomorrow and get them up inside.

These are all temporary fixes until it cools down in the fall and we can make more permanent changes that will be long term.

 

[seth8530]

I do not think that the ties are really at fault.. Yes, they might be hot but I think that they are just a sign of the fact that it is hot outside. I think you have a much bigger issue with the overall radiant heat from the sun that is convecting its way into your cellar through the relatively small layer of dirt you have on the roof.

 

[Sammyk]

I don't recall, will have to check with the heat sensor gun again but it was not overly warm on top. The plants have filled in really nicely on top and not much ground is showing anymore.

 

[novalou]

Out of curiosity and to help our buddy Sammy out, I checked into the R values of soil and concrete.

I was pretty shocked that the values of both were very low, r=0.25 per inch of soil, so an R value of 3 for 12 inches of soil.

R value of 4" of concrete, is about 0.44.

I assume that you have a roof R value of 3.44. 2 inches of Owens Corning Fomular Foam board alone is R 10. Adding this will increase the insulating value by a factor of 4.5.

As far as the rail road ties go, remember they are dark. The ties absorb the UV and give off infrared. When you shoot them for a temp during the day, it is also picking up the heat given off by the sunlight via infrared. Paint them, stucco them, make them lighter by whatever means necessary.

 

[Sammyk]

novalou, thank you! There is 4 inches of concrete on top.

 

[seth8530]

Yeah, something else to consider is that when doing overall R value calculations you need to treat them like resistors in a circuit.. So if their is an alternative route for the heat to get in you treat the two different paths for heat to get in as parallel resistors (add the inverses and take the inverse of the sum) while if their is only 1 path you treat them like series resistors ( Ie add them up). So what this means is that you really need to make sure that you make sure that you do not have any major weak spots for heat to get in else it will pretty much negate the places that are very well insulated.

 

[Runningwolf]

Yeah, something else to consider is that when doing overall R value calculations you need to treat them like resistors in a circuit.. So if their is an alternative route for the heat to get in you treat the two different paths for heat to get in as parallel resistors (add the inverses and take the inverse of the sum) while if their is only 1 path you treat them like series resistors ( Ie add them up). So what this means is that you really need to make sure that you make sure that you do not have any major weak spots for heat to get in else it will pretty much negate the places that are very well insulated.

WTF did you just say? HUH? Seth, it's hard to take you serious with that crown on and not laugh. :O Whatever you said it sounds good to me!