Homebrewer Wants to Make Wines

[pmorris]

OK, I'll admit it. I never tried making wines because I didn't believe that I would be happy with the quality of wines that I could make from kits. I stopped by "Thistle Meadows Winery" in the mountains of North Carolina while on a mini-vacationand was shocked to find that all of their wines are made from kits. And some of them were incredibly good! I hereby admit the error of my ways.


So now I want to make my first batch of wine. The problem is, I'm a pretty advanced homebrewerand would like to use some of my existing equipment but didn't want to do so without comment from the experts. This looked like a good place to ask. So here are a few of my questions. If there are questions I'm not asking that I should, please share answers to those as well.


1). I have a 15 gallon stainless steel conical fermenter that I use for my beers. Is there any reason why I shouldn't use that as a primary? I got away from plastic fermenters very early in my brewing hobby to avoid the risks of contamination.My conicalhas a rotating racking arm and a dump valve in the bottom. I could possibly dump lees from the bottom but would probably not want to tie up my conicalas asecondary. Instead, I would just rack to a glass carboy for secondary fermentation.


2). I use Star San to sanitize everthing. I can't imagine anything negative from that but thought I should ask? I use B-Brite to clean; I see that's pretty common.


3). I have a high-quality filter so my water won't contain any chlorine or other chemicals or biologics. Since I won't be boiling the water like I do with brewing, should I plan to sanitize my water with camden? What if I boiled the water, then let it cool before adding it to my kit. Or do many of you prefer sterile juice kits?


4). Before pitching my yeast for homebrewing, I oxygenate the wort using pure oxygen through a sanitized aeration stone. Do the yeasts used in winemaking benefit from oxygenation? I know that oxygen is a bad thing at all other stages of fermentation.


5). Are the dry yeasts that come with the kits good quality? I got away from the dried yeasts in homebrewing early and now use the yeasts of White Labs. They have a series of yeasts for wine production. Have there been any comparisons of the different varieties of yeasts available to the winemaker?


6). I'm thinking of making a white first (probably a gewurz or sauvignon blanc), so I'll have something to drink while I wait for batch 2 (something red) matures. Any comments?


7). I have a "you get what you pay for" attitude, so I'm inclined to purchase a more expensive kit. I see a lot of discussion about the Mosti Mondiale kits. Is it too bold for me to start there? Any guidance here would be appreciated.


8). I plan to do much more reading before I start. I'll read the tutorials on this site and others. I've also read that the instructions in the wine kits are pretty good and should be followed closely.


I'm sure I'll think of other questions, but this should be a good start. Thanks in advance for any guidance you can provide.Edited by: pmorris

 

[NorthernWinos]

Welcome...Hope you enjoy your new venture into winemaking...I'm sure others will give you advice on your kits....I only do scratch wines...Share your brewing expertise with us too....

 

[Wade E]

1) The SS fermenter should be fine. As for dumping the lees, some kits
requier them to be transferred with the must while others have you
leave them. It all depends on which fining ingredients each kit comes
with.



2) Most of us use pot.-meta. or sod.-meta. to sanitize but know there
are a few that use Star San or other brands so that shouldnt be a
problem. I also use B-Brite for cleaning.



3) Is this a water softner or just filter as Ive read that softners arent to good for making wine, not to sure about beer.

Ill leave the rest of this question to one of our chemists as I would not want to stare you wrong.



4) Yes the yeasts benefit from oxygen but just allowing the yeast to
get oxygen by covering the top with a cloth instead of lid is
sufficient.



5)If you buy a hit and switch the yeast you will be voiding the
warranty of the kit and this is not recommended. These yeasts have been
picked by experts in this field and hand selected for each different
kit.



6) Doing a white first is absolutely a great idea as they dont require
long term aging to be great wines but still do benefit from time.



7) For the most part this is true, especially for red wines although Im
sure there are people that liked a lesser version of a kit over the
more expensive one here and there. Everyone has his or her own taste.



8) Reading is the best thing you can do to further this hobby and learn
how others feel about things you have asked and subjects that you will
and if youy have any more questions feelfree to ask. Welcome to this
forum pmorris and hope you stay and share your experiences. This is
agreat place to learn from and buy wine making supplies!

 

[smurfe]

You have done your research. Looks like you have a good game plan. I don't see why you can't use your fermenter. As Wade stated, sometimes you transfer the lees, sometimes you don't. Depends on the kit. Don't worry about the water. If it comes from a municipal water system, it will be fine, particularly if you filter the water. If from a well, you might want to boil, even if filtered unless you have it tested and it is OK. Your sanitizers are fine.


Good plan with getting a premium kit. You won't be disappointed. The yeast included in the kits is just fine and it is not advised to sway. Particular yeasts compliment particular wines. In regards to the kits, I have not made a Mosti kit (well I havea Port going now) yet but will soon. I have made many of the Wine Expert kits and can vouch for them. I have heard nothing but good about the Mosti. Good plan on making the white to start. Will be drinkable long before a red will be.


In regards to additional equipment you will need a 6 US gallon carboy and a corker. Many of the beer making equipment should interchange like racking canes and hose etc. A drill mounted stirrer is recommended but not required. Filters are not required but nice to have. I don;t know what you use to bottle with but that will need to be addressed. George can set you up with the necessities.


Last but not least. Remember winemaking is a longer process than beer. It will take patience but the rewards will be great. There is aging involved and wine will change as it develops. You have found a great place to hang out and ask the questions as well as just have fun. We look forward to helping you convert and answer any and all questions.


Welcome


Smurfe

 

[pmorris]

Thanks, Northern Winos, Wade and Smurfe for your responses. It's very helpful to get your feedback. This appears to be a really good forum and everyone raves about George. I'll be sure to order some things from here. I have a local store but I don't think they have nearly the selection.


This looks like a great hobby and it will be very easy to get into since so much of my equipment can be re-used. Edited by: pmorris

 

[PeterZ]

pmorris,


I agree with what the others have said here, and I think you are on the right track. I would caution you that oxygenating the wine the way you do beer would not be a good idea. Fruit juice is much more prone to degradation through oxidation than beer wort is. A good stirring prior to pitching the yeast should introduce sufficient oxygen for the initial growth of yeast.


Remember, wine kits are 6 gallons, and won't fit in 5 gallon carboys!

 

[pmorris]

PeterZ: Thanks for the additional comment. I don't know what would have happened if I'd oxygenated my juice, but I suspect this forum has saved me at least the price of a kit, so my time has been more than worthwhile, here.




In my homebrewing, I've accumulated several 6 1/2 gallon and several 5 gallon carboys. Do I need to buy some 6 gallon as well? Or will it be ok to use the 6 1/2s? I usually fill my carboys with CO2 prior to transferring any fermenting liquids. Would that make my 6 1/2 gallon carboys exceptable for wine usage?


I really appreciate all of the great advice on this forum. I've ordered the Mosti Mondiale - Renaissance -Luna di Miele (yes, from George!). I'm getting marriedon May 19th (her first, my last) and I thought it a good omen to find aMosti winekit called "Honeymoon."


Thus, my journey begins..... I'll keep everyone posted on my progress.Edited by: pmorris

 

[smurfe]

I have heard of a few winemakers injecting CO2 but have no experience with it. It still seems illogical to me as after you stabilize you wine and let it set to clear you drive off the CO2. The true need to inject the CO2 would be to add it during the clearing stage to prevent oxidation. This is when we degas and top up the carboy. I would think it would be impossible to degas if you add CO2 to blanket the wine to prevent oxidation. Like I said though, I have heard of it being done so hopefully someone will chime in and add an educated reply. For no more than a couple carboys cost, I would just get a couple 6 gallon. You could always use a 5 gallon and get some one gallon jugs for that extra gallon.

 

[BrianD]

You could always use a 5 gallon and get some one gallon jugs for that extra gallon.

As a homebrewer that's adding some winemaking, I suggest that you get the 6 two six gallon carboys, too. I tried to use my 5 gallon plus a 1 gallon jug, but got stumped on the kit step where they have you add the clarifiers and stabilizers and stir vigorously to release C02 during those steps. I bought 1 six gallon carboy and used it at that step. This past weekend, when I had to rack the wine off of the stuff that had settled, I had to rack into my primary fermenter, clean the carboy, and rack back into the carboy. It would have been so much simpler with a second six gallon carboy.

Let's see....what else....

When I started my 6 gallon kit, I used a 2 quart pitcher with measures marked on the side to 'calibrate' my primary fermenter 6 gallon line. While that might have been accurate, there's a big difference between that line and the amount held by my 6 gallon carboy, two inches from the carboy top. So, when I racked the wine out of the primary, I had to top off with a lot of wine or water to bring it up to where it needed to be in the secondary. I used a less-than-stellar wine to do so.

My point is, I've learned that if I am going to do six gallon kits that it really is best to have some six gallon vessels.

I'm also beginning to do smaller batches of juice concentrate and fruit puree wines, so I'll be able to use 5 gallon equipment and gallon jugs to do that.

So far, so good. My Graduation Day Pinot Noir has about another two weeks before I bottle, unless I feel like waiting a bit more. Tastes great. My one gallon of Welch's White Grape/Raspberry is still in the primary, and is thin as people have commented in the past. But I'll bet it will eventually be good cold, bottled in beer bottles.

Brian

 

[masta]

Great advice Brian...thanks for sharing that.

 

[Wade E]

Brian I would leave it in the carboy as long as possible but also allow
about 2 weeks in the bottles to get rid of bottle shock. This is an off
flavor that happens when first bottling and lasts approx. 2 weeks.

 

[BrianD]

Brian I would leave it in the carboy as long as possible but also allow
about 2 weeks in the bottles to get rid of bottle shock. This is an off
flavor that happens when first bottling and lasts approx. 2 weeks.

Thanks, Wade. That's advice I can use that I wasn't aware of, yet.

Brian

 

[smurfe]

You could always use a 5 gallon and get some one gallon jugs for that extra gallon.

As a homebrewer that's adding some winemaking, I suggest that you get the 6 two six gallon carboys, too. I tried to use my 5 gallon plus a 1 gallon jug, but got stumped on the kit step where they have you add the clarifiers and stabilizers and stir vigorously to release C02 during those steps. I bought 1 six gallon carboy and used it at that step. This past weekend, when I had to rack the wine off of the stuff that had settled, I had to rack into my primary fermenter, clean the carboy, and rack back into the carboy. It would have been so much simpler with a second six gallon carboy.

Let's see....what else....

When I started my 6 gallon kit, I used a 2 quart pitcher with measures marked on the side to 'calibrate' my primary fermenter 6 gallon line. While that might have been accurate, there's a big difference between that line and the amount held by my 6 gallon carboy, two inches from the carboy top. So, when I racked the wine out of the primary, I had to top off with a lot of wine or water to bring it up to where it needed to be in the secondary. I used a less-than-stellar wine to do so.

My point is, I've learned that if I am going to do six gallon kits that it really is best to have some six gallon vessels.

I'm also beginning to do smaller batches of juice concentrate and fruit puree wines, so I'll be able to use 5 gallon equipment and gallon jugs to do that.

So far, so good. My Graduation Day Pinot Noir has about another two weeks before I bottle, unless I feel like waiting a bit more. Tastes great. My one gallon of Welch's White Grape/Raspberry is still in the primary, and is thin as people have commented in the past. But I'll bet it will eventually be good cold, bottled in beer bottles.

Brian

I agree about getting some 6 gallon carboys but the additive mixing isn't really an issue if you have a 6.5 gallon carboy. You simply degas and add the stabilizers and clearing agents in the 6.5 gallon carboy, bring the level to 6 gallonsand then rack to the 5 gallon and one gallon carboy. I have had to do similar in the past when my 6 gallon carboys were all full and I transfered to two 3 gallon carboys. I had to rack a 5 gallon batch once to a 3 gallon and two one gallon carboys.But still, it is best to just get the right equipment for the job.

 

[BrianD]

I agree about getting some 6 gallon carboys but the additive mixing isn't really an issue if you have a 6.5 gallon carboy. You simply degas and add the stabilizers and clearing agents in the 6.5 gallon carboy, bring the level to 6 gallonsand then rack to the 5 gallon and one gallon carboy.

Good point. All I had was primary buckets. A slightly bigger carboy would have been fine for the degassing at that point.

Brian

 

[PeterZ]

The density of pure CO2 gas at 1 atmosphere is about 50% greater than the density of air. Thus, Brian's idea of purging the carboy with CO2 before racking the wine into it is a good one. The wine will not be carbonated by this procedure, nor will it inhibit degassing. All he is doing is replacing the air in the carboy (including the O2 that is in the air) with CO2, which will not hurt the wine.

This is actually a good option when you need to rack some wine and only have a carboy that is too big. You have two choices for purging the carboy before filling. If you have a CO2 setup like many homebrewers do (I have actually seen some high-end homes selling here with those setups for beer on tap in the rec room.) with a tank and regulator, you can simply put some tubing down to the bottom of the carboy and let the CO2 gas run into it for 30 seconds or so. If you don't have that setup, drop a couple of chunks of dry ice into the carboy and let it sublime (evaporate) before you rack the wine.

DISCLAIMER: This is a short-term solution only. If you try to bulk age a 3 gallon batch of port in a six gallon carboy this way you will be dissapointed. Over time changes in air pressure and temperature will cause the gas in the headspace to expand and contract. Every contraction cycle will draw outside air into the carboy, bringing oxygen with it. Since air/gasses change volume much more than liquids with changes in environmental conditions, the less gas in the carboy the better for long term storage.

EDIT: This, however, might be a way to experiment with making a tawny port, which is a ruby port stored for a long time in oak barrels, allowing O2 to partially oxidize the wine by diffusion of O2 through the oak barrel.

Edited by: PeterZ

 

[Wade E]

Great info as usual Peter!

 

[pmorris]

The density of pure CO2 gas at 1 atmosphere is about 50% greater than the density of air. Thus, Brian's idea of purging the carboy with CO2 before racking the wine into it is a good one. The wine will not be carbonated by this procedure, nor will it inhibit degassing. All he is doing is replacing the air in the carboy (including the O2 that is in the air) with CO2, which will not hurt the wine.

This is actually a good option when you need to rack some wine and only have a carboy that is too big. You have two choices for purging the carboy before filling. If you have a CO2 setup like many homebrewers do (I have actually seen some high-end homes selling here with those setups for beer on tap in the rec room.) with a tank and regulator, you can simply put some tubing down to the bottom of the carboy and let the CO2 gas run into it for 30 seconds or so. If you don't have that setup, drop a couple of chunks of dry ice into the carboy and let it sublime (evaporate) before you rack the wine.

PeterZ - Yes, you're correct.It's pretty much a general best practice. Homebrewers who keg use their CO2 rigs to purge carboys or kegs with CO2 prior to filling to reduce the amount of oxidation that occurswhenthe beeris racked.


I've not heard of the dry ice method, but it makes sense. CO2 is heavier than air, as you've noted, so it will form a blanket on the bottom of the carboy. That blanket will create a protective layer betweenthe wine/beer and the air as the carboy is filled.


Before Ihad CO2, I would always worry about splashing as Iracked beer to secondary as itwould increase the amount of oxidation.By purging the carboy with CO2 prior,the liquid can splash away.

 

[OilnH2O]

Pmorris --


You have some great resources and knowledge already -- and I can't begin to help you better than those great minds above, except to add that your questions about yeast have only been addressed by the solid advice on how yeasts are matched to kits. You sound like you are interested, however.

If you do want to know more, WineMaker Magazine had a great series in one issue last summer -- you might check http://winemakermag.com/feature/598.htmland go from there -- actually, that whole issue has several great articles on yeast and I refer to it all the time.It includes atable comparison that includes White labs and all the major yeast brands.


Oh, and welcome aboard!!!