How good a chemistry lab do you need?

[skyrat]

So Now I am missing a point and since I make a lot of berry based wines...... If TTB states ONLY citric acid can be used in berry wines are they not setting the Berry winemaker up for possible / probable microbal failure based on the information provided in the past couple posts.

That would seem to be the case but .....I know that is not true. Can someone clarify the TTB rational here?

 

[Turock]

OK--I read a white paper on citric acid and here's the scoop. Using citric acid on a ferment has the "POSSIBILITY" of producing acetic acid. It said that because of "that risk" many winemakers choose not to use it.

However, we have used acid blend for 23 years on every batch of Niagara wine we've ever made--and we make a lot of it every year--without ever encountering a problem. The wine drinkers who like Niagara tell us that our's is the best Niagara they ever had, including that produced from the wineries in Ohio. That many years of experience trumps what the conventional thinking may say.

On another note--most fruit wines don't need any more acid--they need calcium carbonate to adjust the PH higher because many are too acid to start with. This, of course, depends on location but our soil here is acidic.

There is a smaller amount of citric acid in acid blend so it seems encountering acetic acid formation is much less risk than if you used ALL citric before ferment. That wouldn't be a good way to go, especially since citric acid gives a lemoney flavor which may not be desireable. If you wanted more citric acid in a wine, you'd use it in the post ferment. But I have to say that the citric acid flavor is really delightful in a Niagara.

 

[GreginND]

Turock, I'm glad to hear you have had good experience using acid blend. Are you adding it pre-fermentation? The acetic acid production may be yeast strain dependent. I also presume you are not doing ML fermentation on niagra wine.

Acid blend is typically 50% citric acid. That is not a "smaller" amount.

I will just say because acid blend works well for your niagra wine in the style you are making it, it does not mean it should be generally recommended to others making grape wines. The details about when to add and whether to do ML really do matter.

Skyrat, the TTB restricts berry wines to citric acid only because that is usually the natural acid found in berries. They do not want "unnatural" acids added to fruits that don't normally contain them. I think it is a little misguided. Most fruit wines are not taken through an ML fermentation.

 

[wineman2013]

The production of acetic acid risk is greater durring mlf , not alcohol fermentation.

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/MLF/MLF.htm

Since berry wines don't go through mlf the risk of acetic acid and va production is lower.

For a home winemaker tartaric acid works well with berry wines and has the advantage that its micro bialy stable and if you add too much of it you can cold stabilize and save the wine from your error.

Acid blend doesn't go well with grape wines because it contains D Malic acid which is unfermentable by MLB . This means if you use acid blend then do mlf on the wine , it will always test positive for Malic , making it impossible to know if mlf is complete and the wine stable
And as already stated MLB and citric acid increases the risk of VA

 

[Runningwolf]

This is all great information and thanks to those doing some leg work to post.

 

[GreginND]

The production of acetic acid risk is greater durring mlf , not alcohol fermentation.

http://www.brsquared.org/wine/Articles/MLF/MLF.htm

I think you mean production of diactyl? That is the main product of citric acid metabolism by mlb. I thought acetic acid from citric was a result of yeast metabolism.

Acid blend doesn't go well with grape wines because it contains D Malic acid which is unfermentable by MLB . This means if you use acid blend then do mlf on the wine , it will always test positive for Malic , making it impossible to know if mlf is complete and the wine stable

That's interesting. I just assumed it was the natural L-malic that was used in acid blend. Do you know if manufacturers are using the racemic DL-malic? If so, half the malic would be the unnatural isomer.

I can't find much specific information about acid blend components. The product from Kraus says it is 50% citric, 25% malic, 25% tartaric. Midwest supplies lists their acid blend as 40% citric, 50% malic and 10% tartaric.

Does anyone know how much the ratios differ from product to product? It would seem to me if not all acid blends are the same that making consistent wine from year to year might be a challenge. Another reason to use pure ingredients and know how much you are adding.

 

[ibglowin]

I researched this topic to death several years ago after accidentally adding some store bought Malic which I thought was Tartaric. Everything I found indicated that pure L-Malic (which is what MLB can utilize) is only found in nature.

Manmade Malic is normally a mixture of (D&L). Pure L-Malic is available but very expensive and there are only a couple of manufacturers making it. The buyers of pure L-Malic are manufacturers who produce "organic" labeled foods or beverages. If they need to add Malic for any reason they must use the expensive L-Malic as the (D-L) manmade mixture can not be used in an organically labeled product by law.

If you add inexpensive "Acid blend" to a wine you are getting the manmade (D-L) mixture so it would all depend on the % of each enantiomer as to how much of it could be used by MLB

That's interesting. I just assumed it was the natural L-malic that was used in acid blend. Do you know if manufacturers are using the racemic DL-malic? If so, half the malic would be the unnatural isomer.

 

[Turock]

The paper I read talked about acetic acid formation. Diacetyl acid production is actually desireable in certain wines, Like Chardonnay and Pinot Noir because of the butter flavor and mouthfeel and is the byproduct of MLF with the lactic acid.

Actually, acid blend can be found in different blends--the proportions of each acid can vary and is why we always look at the percentages of the blends when we go to buy it. Citric is never 50%--it varies between 20 and 30%. Also something to consider is how much is used. We are moving the PH with it only a couple of tenths. The grapes may start at 3.3 to 3.4 and we are adjusting to 3.2 So it doesn't require a lot of acid blend.

I understand that depending on the grape and if you are going to do MLF,etc. that you need to know what you're doing in using acid blend. It isn't for everything, to be sure. But to say it can never be used isn't quite correct either.

Yes, we are adding it pre-ferment for PH adjustment. We never MLF a Niagara--that would totally ruin the fruity profile of this wine.

What wineman said about the D malic is correct and is why you are always warned about using no acid other than tartaric when planning to do an MLF.

 

[GreginND]

Kraus lists their acid blend as 50% citric acid.

"Ingredients:
50% citric acid (CAS 77-92-9), 25% malic acid (CAS 6915-15-7), 25% tartaric acid (CAS 87-69-4)."

http://www.eckraus.com/6-oz-acid-blend.html

Midwest Supplies says their acid blend is 40% citric acid.

"Acid blend is made up of 50% Malic Acid, 40% Citric Acid, and 10% Tartaric Acid."

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/acid-blend.html

 

[wineman2013]

Read the article I attached
Heterofermentative MLB can metabolise citric acid to predominantly acetic acid, lactic acid and carbon dioxide [Dittrich, 1977; Subramanian and SivaRaman, 1984; Martineau and Henick-Kling, 1995].

I didn't mean diactyl .

Many of the modern MLB strains are actually selected to produce low levels of diactyl as this is undesirable in red wines , mbr vp 41 is one example
http://www.lallemandwine.com/spip.php?rubrique33&id_mot=23&lang=en

Something to note if working with mega acid hybrid and American reds and whites , you can drop the acid sharpness without your norton or seval blanc tasting like cheese! (Using so2 at crush and cofermenting MLB and yeast also reduce diactyl production) http://www.lallemandwine.com/spip.php?rubrique4<=fr&td=1&univ=23

They also produce less Volatile Acidity but in the presence of citric it's still a risk.
I should note that grapes naturally contain very low levels of citric acid , like a half a percent max . Tartaric and Malic acid dominate . So to add citric is to give the wine an artificial profile.

Acid adjustments in a grape wine should always be done with tartaric as a best practice , it also works very well for fruit wines , is microbialy stable and maybe lowered with CS if you over shoot on your additions .

For members outside the USA acid blend may be hard to find as its not allowed as a wine additive in many countries.

At 8 bucks a pound or less tartaric is cheap enough to use .

Some goog mlf info from UC Davis
http://lfbisson.ucdavis.edu/PDF/VEN124 Section 4.pdf

 

[DaveL]

My head hurts

 

[Turock]

Acid blend varies a lot in it's proportions, as I said. That;s why we look at it caerfully and choose the blend we want.

I agree with microbial stability---that was mentioned in the white paper I read. However, all I can say is that we've used it successfully for 23 years. Yep--the profile it produces might be artificial---maybe that's why our friends like our Niagara over anyone else's!!! I think this was the gist of this thread--that you can produce any profile in your wines that you would like.

White papers give you the absolute science on the subject. However, I've found that some of our successful practices disagree with what they have said. I can think of one major one!!!! I know that in these forums, "best practices" is what should be stated. But I have no problem when success thru experience sometimes goes against the convention of "best practice."

 

[wineman2013]

With forums it's often about what applies in the widest variety of circumstances and reduces risk.

I doubt 95 percent of people here have even tasted a niagra wine let alone made one.
What works with a lightly musky scented native cross breed labrusca wine like niagra doesn't apply to vinifera or a lot of other wines .

Using acid blend may very well be the best choice for a native grape grown in your location and to your particular pallet , but that doesn't translate to it being the best or even a good choice for those working with more common grapes and a goal to make a more universal style wine while minimizing risk.

 

[Turock]

Yes Wineman---I agree with that statement. You have to know your grape and understand the procedures you're going to use on it--like MLF,etc.