How much k-meta for country wines?

[cmason1957]

Argument against adding lots of sugar up front and planning that it will stall out.
1) your yeast may never start fermenting at all, there is a maximum sugar percent that the yeast will start at.
2) your yeast might be suoer strong, have lots of nutrients and end up getting to 18 or 20% abv. Or alternativly your yeast might be from the slow end of the batch and only make 12%abv so you end up with a sweeter brew than you plan on.
3) Wine is very much a balancing act, at 12% abv the sugar amount left over to make a nice, well balanced wine might be much less or much more than you plan for at the start.

 

[CaptainPolish]

The only good argument against it is that you don't have control over the sugar level or the ABV. Nonetheless, you may find a pleasing result from your attempt. You may want to review this thread:
Welch's concord with the super-sugar method

It sounds like they used sorbate, do you think it necessary? I defiantly want to experiment more on this, my only concern is spontaneous fermentation in bottle or something. Maybe a spoilage critter? I feel like it is a faaaar easier way, especially if the only draw back is potentially unknown sugar content or abv, which technically you could add more sugar later if it wasn't sweet enough right? With enough testing you should also be able to see patterns in the the yeast tolerance.

 

[CaptainPolish]

Argument against adding lots of sugar up front and planning that it will stall out.
1) your yeast may never start fermenting at all, there is a maximum sugar percent that the yeast will start at.
2) your yeast might be suoer strong, have lots of nutrients and end up getting to 18 or 20% abv. Or alternativly your yeast might be from the slow end of the batch and only make 12%abv so you end up with a sweeter brew than you plan on.
3) Wine is very much a balancing act, at 12% abv the sugar amount left over to make a nice, well balanced wine might be much less or much more than you plan for at the start.

That does make sense

 

[CaptainPolish]

You may want to review this thread:
Welch's concord with the super-sugar method

Thank you! If I start experimenting with this I'll probably drop it in that thread, keep it alive

 

[winemaker81]

@CaptainPolish, adding on to Paul's and Craig's comments:

The published ABV rating of a strain is under laboratory conditions. In real life, a given batch may be under or over achievers, and your situation can affect this. We've had at least 2 members step feed EC-1118 up to ~20%, while it's published tolerance is 18%.

If a wine is backsweetened, there are at least 3 ways to prevent a renewed fermentation in the bottle:

1. Add sorbate + K-meta, which act as birth control for the yeast, e.g., it can't reproduce.
2. Raise the ABV above the yeast strain's tolerance by adding too much sugar or adding a spirit.
3. Sterile filter the wine to remove the yeast.

Generally option #1 is recommended when making a table wine or normal (11%-15%) ABV. I wrote a longer description including other options here.

A LOT of available recipes were recorded before the common use of hydrometers, and as I've said in other places, these recipes are what worked, not what's best. Adding a lot of sugar up front is not easier -- it may remove a step, but it adds a lot of uncertainty, as you may not know if the ferment is truly done.

@ChuckD recently posted a photo of a rather unfortunate situation:



This bottle was uncorked under controlled circumstances. Please believe me that you do not want 30 spontaneous bottles of this in your wine rack.

When a bunch of experienced winemakers are asking if you really want to do something, it's probably the voices of experience ...

 

[Rice_Guy]

@CaptainPolish yes you could add sugar at the start.
* residual sugar increases the risk of a secondary infection and creating a bomb. If this is done consider a safety step as potassium sorbate or pasteurization or sterile filtration
* there are yeast in the environment which will go up to 22% ABV, you could create an extremely potent brew. There are yeast with kill factor that stop at 8 or 9%. To be done well you need to be certain what you are growing.
* the normal way to push a 14% yeast to high ABV is to step feed. If the yeast is acclimated to high alcohol it will go above specification. Likewise if the ferment has stressors as low pH, low YAN, high SO2 it will stop before specified 14%.
* in the end, wine is a traditional beverage, there is low risk of food poisoning so if that is the style you like do it. Just be aware there is some failure rate in all fermentations.

 

[BigDaveK]

@CaptainPolish I once front loaded a wine using 71B (official tolerance of 14%) that went to 17% ABV because I was curious. Would I get the same results again? Possibly.
I'm all for experimenting and sometimes my priorities change. "Let's try to make a good wine" is always #1 and #2 becomes "Let's see what happens if.....". And I like to see what happens.

BTW, I've had 1 bottle pop a cork on the shelf and the other corks in the batch were half out. Careful but frantic de-corking ensued! And the other corks came out very easily. I still haven't found the first cork that went airborne.

 

[ChuckD]

I've had 1 bottle pop a cork on the shelf and the other corks in the batch were half out. Careful but frantic de-corking ensued!

The picture @winemaker81 posted was my first experience with the purple volcano . I hope it will be the last… but I know better. Too many variables to say never!

 

[CaptainPolish]

@CaptainPolish, adding on to Paul's and Craig's comments:

The published ABV rating of a strain is under laboratory conditions. In real life, a given batch may be under or over achievers, and your situation can affect this. We've had at least 2 members step feed EC-1118 up to ~20%, while it's published tolerance is 18%.

If a wine is backsweetened, there are at least 3 ways to prevent a renewed fermentation in the bottle:

1. Add sorbate + K-meta, which act as birth control for the yeast, e.g., it can't reproduce.
2. Raise the ABV above the yeast strain's tolerance by adding too much sugar or adding a spirit.
3. Sterile filter the wine to remove the yeast.

Generally option #1 is recommended when making a table wine or normal (11%-15%) ABV. I wrote a longer description including other options here.

A LOT of available recipes were recorded before the common use of hydrometers, and as I've said in other places, these recipes are what worked, not what's best. Adding a lot of sugar up front is not easier -- it may remove a step, but it adds a lot of uncertainty, as you may not know if the ferment is truly done.

@ChuckD recently posted a photo of a rather unfortunate situation:

View attachment 107952

This bottle was uncorked under controlled circumstances. Please believe me that you do not want 30 spontaneous bottles of this in your wine rack.

When a bunch of experienced winemakers are asking if you really want to do something, it's probably the voices of experience ...

Thank you for this, I will have too look more into back sweetening in the future, I haven't done enough research to understand it yet and all the variables and what not. I definitely want to do sweet wines in the future but I was curious about the idea. Thank you!

 

[BigDaveK]

Thank you for this, I will have too look more into back sweetening in the future, I haven't done enough research to understand it yet and all the variables and what not. I definitely want to do sweet wines in the future but I was curious about the idea. Thank you!

@CaptainPolish back sweetening is an important and valuable tool in wine making. Keep in mind it isn't just done to make a sweet wine. Sometimes just a bit of sugar will take the edge off a wine, make it balanced, so that no single element (acid, alcohol, sweetness) is dominant.

And let me save you some time. Many members, especially @winemaker81, will say to almost sweeten to taste and stop. I had to find out for myself, of course. Sure enough, after 2 months in the bottle it was almost too sweet for me. Live and learn!

 

[CaptainPolish]

@CaptainPolish back sweetening is an important and valuable tool in wine making. Keep in mind it isn't just done to make a sweet wine. Sometimes just a bit of sugar will take the edge off a wine, make it balanced, so that no single element (acid, alcohol, sweetness) is dominant.

And let me save you some time. Many members, especially @winemaker81, will say to almost sweeten to taste and stop. I had to find out for myself, of course. Sure enough, after 2 months in the bottle it was almost too sweet for me. Live and learn!

oh weird! I have much to learn

 

[winemaker81]

oh weird! I have much to learn

You have NO idea ... yet ... but if you continue, you will.

I learn something new every week on this forum.

 

[user 32114]

Argument against adding lots of sugar up front and planning that it will stall out.
1) your yeast may never start fermenting at all, there is a maximum sugar percent that the yeast will start at.
2) your yeast might be suoer strong, have lots of nutrients and end up getting to 18 or 20% abv. Or alternativly your yeast might be from the slow end of the batch and only make 12%abv so you end up with a sweeter brew than you plan on.
3) Wine is very much a balancing act, at 12% abv the sugar amount left over to make a nice, well balanced wine might be much less or much more than you plan for at the start.

hench step feeding,
Dawg