How to handle these new 'red wines'? Halt? Bulk store?

[Merfenter]

I have 4 newly made wines in 'red wine style', made from fruit and berries.
I have a few questions that I need your help with:

All wines have alot of tannines/astringency so they will need some aging.

pH is now from 3.6 to 3.77
ABV ~16

Questions:

1. Should I preferrably store the wines without halting the yeast process?
or should I use Campden (potassium metabisulphite E224) to halt them and bottle them, then store?

2. Will malolactic fermentation also be halted if I use E224?

3. Which way does the tannines get processed best/quickest?

4. For a red wine with this alcohol level - what do you think is optimal pH level? (I think these might be a little bit too low)

 

[Ohio Bob]

1. Halting the yeast process? Do you mean to say “stopping the fermentation to keep some residual sweetness”? That is going to be hard to do, and very subjective. You may not know the best level of sweetness until the ferment has finished. Better (easier, repeatable, controllable) to let the ferment finish to completion. Then bulk age and back sweeten (also adding sorbate to prevent fermentation restarting). Metabisulfite by itself will not kill yeast. It is added to prevent oxidation of the wine, should be added everytime you rack a wine, and at bottling.

2. MLF can be stunted severely by sulphites, but not killed off completely.

3. Excessive tannins, where I would suggest the wine is undrinkable, can be lessened with techniques such as adding egg whites. For normal levels of tannins, simply aging the wine will suffice. Best is a subjective term. Quickest is easy to quantify, but a very quick method might ruin your wine.

4. pH levels seem ok. However that is also a matter of taste, as it sweetness. There is no single number that works for all wines, or all drinkers.

 

[winemaker81]

2. Will malolactic fermentation also be halted if I use E224?

Is the fruit you're using high in malic acid? If not, there's no point in attempting MLF.

 

[Merfenter]

1. Halting the yeast process? Do you mean to say “stopping the fermentation to keep some residual sweetness”? That is going to be hard to do, and very subjective. You may not know the best level of sweetness until the ferment has finished. Better (easier, repeatable, controllable) to let the ferment finish to completion. Then bulk age and back sweeten (also adding sorbate to prevent fermentation restarting). Metabisulfite by itself will not kill yeast. It is added to prevent oxidation of the wine, should be added everytime you rack a wine, and at bottling.

The ferment has finished a while ago.. but some yeast are still alive I think. The wines have correct or to little sweetness. OK, then I will bulk age them and maybe add some metabisulphite. It also feels most logical that the wines would progress best without killing off any process fully.

2. MLF can be stunted severely by sulphites, but not killed off completely.

OK, then maybe not neccesary to add metabisulphite at all. Also because these wines still contain very much CO2 which protect and make barrier to oxygen?

Is the fruit you're using high in malic acid? If not, there's no point in attempting MLF.

From the ingrediens it looks like the wines are very high in malic acid.

3. Excessive tannins, where I would suggest the wine is undrinkable, can be lessened with techniques such as adding egg whites. For normal levels of tannins, simply aging the wine will suffice. Best is a subjective term. Quickest is easy to quantify, but a very quick method might ruin your wine.

Yeah I bet aging do the trick!

4. pH levels seem ok. However that is also a matter of taste, as it sweetness. There is no single number that works for all wines, or all drinkers.

OK! Good to know. That was what I found when searching too.. I just thought about setting my pH target maybe a little higher next time. Maybe pH 3.8 - 4.0 or so.

 

[winemaker81]

OK, then maybe not neccesary to add metabisulphite at all. Also because these wines still contain very much CO2 which protect and make barrier to oxygen?

K-meta is an anti-oxidant and preservative. It neutralizes contaminant by combining with them. Wines made with K-meta typically have a significantly longer shelf life.

From the ingrediens it looks like the wines are very high in malic acid.

Something to consider -- malic acid is not the preferred acid in grape wines; that's tartaric. Malic acid makes grape wines tart, like apples (which are high in malic acid). MLF changes malic into the milder lactic acid, which improves the grape wine.

If the fruit is naturally high in malic acid, THAT is the flavor profile. Let's say you run MLF on an apple wine -- you just neutralized the main flavor, one thing that heavily contributes to apples tasting like apples. The resulting wine is likely to be flabby and/or tasteless.

 

[Ohio Bob]

OK, then maybe not neccesary to add metabisulphite at all. Also because these wines still contain very much CO2 which protect and make barrier to oxygen?

It is crucial, in my opinion, to always add metabisulfite at appropriate times, such as when you are racking wines. Racking introduces oxygen, remember that Kmeta acts as an anti-oxidant, therefore it protects the wine.

Also keep in mind that once the SG gets to 1.000-ish, no CO2 is being generated. The CO2 will eventually dissipate, even in a carboy with an airlock. Also Kmeta effects also dissipate, usually no longer effective after 3 months. You will hear stories where some people don’t rack for 6, 9 months or more, with no ill effects. There are always outliers, but 3 months is typically advised.

 

[winemaker81]

You will hear stories where some people don’t rack for 6, 9 months or more, with no observed ill effects. There are always outliers, but 3 months is typically advised.

I added a word to your statement, since there may be a problem but it has not yet been identified, and may never be identified, e.g., the wine quality is less than what it could be.

@Merfenter, something to consider is that by the time you observe your wine is oxidized, it is too late to fix it. So for many things in winemaking, we perform preventative measures, such as adding K-meta.

 

[Merfenter]

OK..! *** Thinking back to some wine that actually have oxidized after final fermentation stop.. *** I get your point and adding some is probably overall good. Thanks for quick and wise feedback guys!

Now I must move some wines to glass dame jeanne or 10 litre plastic cans to make space for new wines. All my 6 brewing buckets are occupied..

Another question.. to fetch a wine sample from a container without a tap. Do you have some special invention to replace the sample with CO2? I am thinking of building one...

 

[winemaker81]

Another question.. to fetch a wine sample from a container without a tap. Do you have some special invention to replace the sample with CO2? I am thinking of building one...

I have a couple of wine thieves. One is glass and takes less than 1/2 oz. I simply don't worry about it, as I don't do a lot of sampling and the headspace is small to begin with.

The other is a Fermtech thief, which is wide enough to hold a hydrometer. When topping barrels we take a larger sample, which is replaced as we are topping barrels from smaller containers.

 

[Merfenter]

Fermtech thief looks nice! It is much better than pouring out all heavy CO2 gas and letting air in, by tilting the container. The best would however be a device that have a hose into the wine and then push CO2 into the container, pressing a sample out the hose. No air entering the container.

 

[Raptor99]

All wines have alot of tannines/astringency so they will need some aging.

Actually, many fruits are low on tannins. I regularly add extra tannins and/or age on oak chips for most of my fruit (i.e. non-grape fruit) wines.

Let's say you run MLF on an apple wine -- you just neutralized the main flavor, one thing that heavily contributes to apples tasting like apples.

Good point. Apples need malic acid to taste like apples. Blueberries need citric acid. So when I need to add extra acid to a fruit wine/cider, I usually add the predominate acid for that fruit. My goal is not to make everything taste like grape wine by using mainly tartaric acid (the main acid in grapes).

Another question.. to fetch a wine sample from a container without a tap. Do you have some special invention to replace the sample with CO2? I am thinking of building one...

Adding CO2 to an open container is not a good solution, because it will mix with the air and leave some oxygen in the carboy. If you are bulk aging, you need to top it off with a similar wine so that there is very little headspace. But when taking tiny samples, e.g. less than 1/2 oz., for testing, the increase in headspace is probably not enough to worry about.

The best would however be a device that have a hose into the wine and then push CO2 into the container, pressing a sample out the hose. No air entering the container.

That device has already been invented. It is called a keg. If you rack your wine into a keg, and fill it to the top, then you can use CO2 to push out the wine without allowing any air to enter. There is a chance of a slight amount of carbonation due to the CO2 pressure. Some winemakers use corny kegs to dispense wine. Usually you can pick up a used one for a reasonable price. I have several, and I am getting ready to carbonate some of my cider.

 

[Rice_Guy]

A word of warning, a pH 3.7 wine is at serious risk of a wild lactic acid bacteria infection. I would 1) drop the pH to 3.2 to 3.3 and sulphite or 2) drop the pH to 3.5 and treat with lysozyme or 3) drop the pH to 3.5 and treat with Bactiless. IF your sugar is below 1.002 you could consider racking to remove as much yeast as possible > treating with Potassium sorbate to stop reproduction & sulphite at 50 ppm.

Astringent flavors can be reduced with gelatin/ a protein fining process. BUT letting the polyphenols in will give shelf life. Astringent flavor is a multiplier of acid flavor, you can also balance astringent by adding sugar. ,,, With black raspberry astringent starts at about 18 months an is mostly done polymerizing at three years. ,,, every fruit has a little different chemistry.

Invention? Old technology was add marbles, I like one inch LDPE rods with a little extra Stainless for weight (LDPE will float). I have -20” Hg vacuum with check valve on some glass carboys.

 

[Merfenter]

Actually, many fruits are low on tannins. I regularly add extra tannins and/or age on oak chips for most of my fruit (i.e. non-grape fruit) wines.

Good point. Apples need malic acid to taste like apples. Blueberries need citric acid. So when I need to add extra acid to a fruit wine/cider, I usually add the predominate acid for that fruit. My goal is not to make everything taste like grape wine by using mainly tartaric acid (the main acid in grapes).

Adding CO2 to an open container is not a good solution, because it will mix with the air and leave some oxygen in the carboy. If you are bulk aging, you need to top it off with a similar wine so that there is very little headspace. But when taking tiny samples, e.g. less than 1/2 oz., for testing, the increase in headspace is probably not enough to worry about.


That device has already been invented. It is called a keg. If you rack your wine into a keg, and fill it to the top, then you can use CO2 to push out the wine without allowing any air to enter. There is a chance of a slight amount of carbonation due to the CO2 pressure. Some winemakers use corny kegs to dispense wine. Usually you can pick up a used one for a reasonable price. I have several, and I am getting ready to carbonate some of my cider.

My goal with these was actually to make rich and tannine bomb wines. Lots of fruit/berry per litre. I also let the ingrediens sit a veery long time (experiment) before sifting them. 4 weeks(!) That together with tannine rich berries and I think I got what I asked for

What is the longest successful time for you before sifting away fruit/berry remains? And what is your normal time?
I think I might have stretched it a bit too far this time.

About CO2 I did not mean in an fully open container, but e.g. a 10 litre glass or plastic can. Putting on a device with sealing, when pressing down CO2 and getting wine up.

 

[Merfenter]

A word of warning, a pH 3.7 wine is at serious risk of a wild lactic acid bacteria infection. I would 1) drop the pH to 3.2 to 3.3 and sulphite or 2) drop the pH to 3.5 and treat with lysozyme or 3) drop the pH to 3.5 and treat with Bactiless. IF your sugar is below 1.002 you could consider racking to remove as much yeast as possible > treating with Potassium sorbate to stop reproduction & sulphite at 50 ppm.

Astringent flavors can be reduced with gelatin/ a protein fining process. BUT letting the polyphenols in will give shelf life. Astringent flavor is a multiplier of acid flavor, you can also balance astringent by adding sugar. ,,, With black raspberry astringent starts at about 18 months an is mostly done polymerizing at three years. ,,, every fruit has a little different chemistry.

Invention? Old technology was add marbles, I like one inch LDPE rods with a little extra Stainless for weight (LDPE will float). I have -20” Hg vacuum with check valve on some glass carboys.

OK, very interesting about 'astringent flavor is a multiplier of acid flavor'! I think that is why they almost taste too acidic even though pH is not too low. I think bulk storage of these will do them really good.

Ah cool.. marbles or other 'filler'

 

[winemanden]

Not the answer to your question, I know. If you're going to make the same style of wines in the future, and the fruit is high in malic acid, why not use 71B yeast. That will partly take care of your malic acid problem. Given the right conditions 71B should give you approx 14%, if you need it higher, step feed it.
As for not using Sulphite, I've tasted a few wines that were made that way, which were not exactly oxidised, but somehow to me just didn't taste quite right!

 

[Raptor99]

My goal with these was actually to make rich and tannine bomb wines. Lots of fruit/berry per litre. I also let the ingrediens sit a veery long time (experiment) before sifting them. 4 weeks(!) That together with tannine rich berries and I think I got what I asked for

What is the longest successful time for you before sifting away fruit/berry remains? And what is your normal time?
I think I might have stretched it a bit too far this time.

I usually rack off the gross lees (fruit bits and sediment) about a week after starting fermentation. Some on WMT have experimented with leaving it on the gross lees for a longer time.

About CO2 I did not mean in an fully open container, but e.g. a 10 litre glass or plastic can. Putting on a device with sealing, when pressing down CO2 and getting wine up.

Glass carboys are not designed to withstand pressure. So if you push in CO2 to push the wine out, there is a danger of them exploding.

 

[Merfenter]

Not the answer to your question, I know. If you're going to make the same style of wines in the future, and the fruit is high in malic acid, why not use 71B yeast. That will partly take care of your malic acid problem. Given the right conditions 71B should give you approx 14%, if you need it higher, step feed it.
As for not using Sulphite, I've tasted a few wines that were made that way, which were not exactly oxidised, but somehow to me just didn't taste quite right!

oh that was a really good tip!! thank you. I usually use rc-212 + ec-1118. I will add 71b to my arsenal

 

[winemaker81]

oh that was a really good tip!! thank you. I usually use rc-212 + ec-1118. I will add 71b to my arsenal

Renaissance Avante eats 25-30% of the available malic acid. I tested it against Renaissance Bravo last fall with Chambourcin, and the Avante batch has lower acid.

The drawback to Renaissance strains is that smaller packages are pricey.

 

[Merfenter]

I usually rack off the gross lees (fruit bits and sediment) about a week after starting fermentation. Some on WMT have experimented with leaving it on the gross lees for a longer time.

Glass carboys are not designed to withstand pressure. So if you push in CO2 to push the wine out, there is a danger of them exploding.

Yeah I wonder what time is best. To leach out lots of colors and tannines, alcohol might help when leveled up.. which need some time. I think I will try 3 weeks next time.

The 'thing' I try to describe has a hose where the wine sample goes out when CO2 is pressed in, so no danger even with glass container.

 

[Merfenter]

Renaissance Avante eats 25-30% of the available malic acid. I tested it against Renaissance Bravo last fall with Chambourcin, and the Avante batch has lower acid.

The drawback to Renaissance strains is that smaller packages are pricey.

oh! but I don't find any webshop I can buy it here in Sweden or EU..