I have a ?? about barrel aging

[ibglowin]

In case anyone is interested on why a small 5-6 gallon barrel is more dangerous with oak than a full size barrel.

From high school geometry class, we know that the volume of a cylinder is expressed as:

Volume = PI * Radius * Radius * Height

The area of a cylinder is expressed as:

Area = 2* PI * Radius* Height

Where:

The Radius refers to the radius of the barrel.
The Height refers to the height of the barrel
PI = 3.14159265...

Now, taking the area to volume ratio of our wine barrel we get:

Area / Volume = 2 * PI * Radius * Height / PI * Radius * Radius * Height

Canceling terms, this yields the simple expression:

Area / Volume = 2 / Radius

So the surface area to volume relationship is simply two divided by the radius of the wine barrel.

Compare this relationship for various size wine barrels:

A five gallon wine barrel has a radius of about 6 inches

A sixty gallon wine barrel has a radius of about 12 inches.

Applying the formula shows that a sixty gallon wine barrel has an area to volume ratio of about half that of a five gallon oak barrel.

In other words, a small 5-6 gallon barrel will oak a wine in 1/2 the time a full size barrel will.

 

[djrockinsteve]

That is why wine stored in a carboy ages slower than in a bottle. More wine is exposed in a bottle than in a 5 gallon carboy.

 

[Brian]

In case anyone is interested on why a small 5-6 gallon barrel is more dangerous with oak than a full size barrel.

From high school geometry class, we know that the volume of a cylinder is expressed as:

Volume = PI * Radius * Radius * Height

The area of a cylinder is expressed as:

Area = 2* PI * Radius* Height

Where:

The Radius refers to the radius of the barrel.
The Height refers to the height of the barrel
PI = 3.14159265...

Now, taking the area to volume ratio of our wine barrel we get:

Area / Volume = 2 * PI * Radius * Height / PI * Radius * Radius * Height

Canceling terms, this yields the simple expression:

Area / Volume = 2 / Radius

So the surface area to volume relationship is simply two divided by the radius of the wine barrel.

Compare this relationship for various size wine barrels:

A five gallon wine barrel has a radius of about 6 inches

A sixty gallon wine barrel has a radius of about 12 inches.

Applying the formula shows that a sixty gallon wine barrel has an area to volume ratio of about half that of a five gallon oak barrel.

In other words, a small 5-6 gallon barrel will oak a wine in 1/2 the time a full size barrel will.

Gee Mike after reading that my head hurts.... LOL

 

[ibglowin]

Please explain to me exactly what is confusing about the quoted statement......

 

[Brian]

nothing confusing it just reminds me of math class... LOL I made it through but man it was tough..

 

[Rock]

This also depends on the age of the barrel and the toast and what amount of oak your looking for.I have a 4 year old barrel that is just about neutral.Yes the smaller barrels do oak faster.Like i said it also depends on the barrels and your taste buds and the quality of the barrel.Hell lets face it i love my barrels im glad you guys do too.

 

[ibglowin]

So, how many 5 or 6 gallon barrels do you personally own? If the answer is as I suspect, ZERO then you have ZERO experience with this size barrel and have no idea about an actual break in period for a new one.

I actually do have a 6 gallon Vadai that I bought new this Fall. I did not pull the break in schedule for a 6 gallon Vadai out of my *** as you seem to think. I got it from a very well respected guy named Zac Brown over on Winepress. Zac has been using various sizes of Vadai barrels for years. This is the schedule he has come up with for a 6 gallon barrel with a lot of trial and error. It may be a conservative schedule but I would rather be conservative with breaking in a new barrel than ruin 6 gallons of wine.

There are no less than 23 pages of post on Winepress in the Barrels and Oaking forum. You may wish to check it out, perhaps you may learn something but I suspect probably not.

Need more proof that this is in fact a tried and trusted schedule for a small barrel? Get a copy of "Techniques in Home Winemaking" by Daniel Pambianchi. Page 332 under oak barrel aging. The author list his break in schedule for a 15 gallon barrel (over 2X the size of mine) as:

1st batch 2-3 weeks
2nd batch 1-2 months
3rd batch 2-4 months

I now have my third batch of wine in my 6 gallon Vadai. I have been following Zac's break in schedule and I like the amount of oak imparted in each one. Its there but it doesn't overpower you.

You say your just trying to help the OP, well so am I. But for one reason or another you seem to want to dismiss everything I say like I have no idea what I am talking about.

In case you haven't noticed the poor OP checked out long ago and now so am I.

The post of yours i quoted, you said "In other words, a small 5-6 gallon barrel will oak a wine in 1/2 the time a full size barrel will."
Now if i am not mistaken, and a full size barrel takes a year to oak a wine, and your saying it takes 1/2 the time with a 5-6 gallon barrel. Wouldn't your statement mean it takes 6 months to oak a wine in the 5-6 gallon barrel. Not two weeks like you have been arguing. I must say all i am trying to do is be helpful to the guy that originally asked the question by adding some of my experience in hopes it helps him. It appears you want to make smart a$$ replies to people and try to get a reaction.

 

[Wade E]

OK guys, please chill out!!!!!!!! You are actually both right! Oak is about the most preferential part of wine making there is right about equal with sweetness. Type of oak can also be a huge difference as Hungarian is much much smoother then American so having your wine sit in an American barrel the same amount of time as a Hungarian or French and youd most likely have to let that wine sit in bottles for about 4 years to let the American oak mellow out or it could be too oaked and be used as red stain! This is a hobby fellows and I dont want what should be nice easy helpful info to turn into a verbal brawl. Thats saved for another website.

 

[Wade E]

You guys are both great additions to our wine making forum. I dont like nor want to go deleting or editing people or posts as thats not the way I like to run this forum. Im man enough to know when Im either not smart enough to enter into discussion debating the sciences about a subject and Im also man enough to just say what I believe and leave it as that and not say Im the one whos right, there are so many ways of getting to point "D" then the given path. Like I said above this subject is one of the most preferential parts of wine making that 20 people can have different feelings on this and all be right. I love to listen to everyone's opinion.

 

[JohnT]

Geeeeze. This is not the end of the world guys. This is just about oaking wine. Wade is right... Chill out.

IBGLOWIN - The one thing you do not take into account is that oaking is not really a science (although your science would serve as a good rule of thumb). I do have experience with 5 gal barrels and this is what I have found...

You run a much higher risk of oxidizing your wine than over oaking. This math can be interpreted as a very bad thing. The increased surface are to volume can also mean that there is proportionally MORE micro/macro oxidation that occures.

You also do not take into account the rate of absorbtion (effected by the chemical makeup of the wine {varied}) and the specific characteristics of the specific wood used, exact amount of toast, amount of "pre-soaking" performed on the barrel itself, and a host of other valiables like temperature and barametric pressure changes. Another this is that tastes vary. Some like a strong oak and some do not. In short, there are no absolutes with oaking.

I recommend that we do the same thing that most wineries do. Establish a rule of thumb, but let our toungues decide. In dealing with oak, I have found that 2 weeks is never enough time. I always age 6 - 8 weeks minimum on new wood. I like em oaky. That's just me.

 

[Rock]

OK guys, please chill out!!!!!!!! You are actually both right! Oak is about the most preferential part of wine making there is right about equal with sweetness. Type of oak can also be a huge difference as Hungarian is much much smoother then American so having your wine sit in an American barrel the same amount of time as a Hungarian or French and youd most likely have to let that wine sit in bottles for about 4 years to let the American oak mellow out or it could be too oaked and be used as red stain! This is a hobby fellows and I dont want what should be nice easy helpful info to turn into a verbal brawl. Thats saved for another website.

Ok Wade i guess i will have to send you a bottle of my american oaked wine im bottling soon.Better than my french oaked,but i guess this is the great thing about oaking your wines with a barrel.Everybody has their opinion.I have never gone by others barrel break in methods but only my own taste.

 

[Wade E]

That's the answer right there, to each's taste.