Introduction and First Questions

[Schattenmann]

Hi, I don't really do real name online, I'm Schattenmann.
I'm in my 30s, from central Virginia. I started making wine a few weeks ago when I decided I shouldn't make more than one cobbler after picking 4 lbs of blackberries. I've got a history degree, enjoy the classics, campfires, and I do lifecasting as a hobby (making molds of people). I've got 20+ years with Boy Scouts of America. No kids, 2 siblings.

Like probably 90% of newbies, I started with the Vintner's brand kit from my local store. It comes with Ray Massaccesi's book of recipes.

My first two runs (one gallon pure blackberry, one blackberry-Welch's with my leftover berries) are doing great. Started at 1.09, into secondary at 1.03, racked after ~1 week at .99 now sitting in brown paper.
My second run went down the drain. I found a half gallon of peach "cider" (juice) in the pantry, label claimed no preservatives but it wouldn't ferment.
My third run is 2 gallons of cider from .5 gal. of Murray's Virginia "cider" (filtered juice) and 1 gal. of Murray's juice (unfiltered).

My questions stem from the cider: what does Massaccesi mean when he says "dissolved sugar"? (I searched the forum for "dissolved sugar" but it pulls up a lot of static for just sugar even though I used quotes). I asked the local store what he means by dissolved sugar, and they weren't sure.

I've just transferred the apple wine/cider (pg 3, recipe 3) to secondary ferment. (Starting SG was 1.090, transferred last night at 1.020)
For that recipe, the directions say: "For Apple Cider, follow Apple Wine method. When ferment is complete, stir in gently 1/4 cup dissolved sugar per gallon of cider. Bottle in champagne or soda bottles. Apply crown caps. Age for 3 months."

Many of his recipes have a "serve young" option that say to add X amount of dissolved sugar, but he never says what dissolved sugar is. Is he calling simple syrup dissolved sugar? If so, why doesn't he just say simple syrup? Is dissolved sugar something different than simple syrup? I feel like this is a dumb question (there are dumb questions ) but I don't know why he would use an esoteric term for simple syrup if he just means simple syrup.
Or, does he maybe even mean dissolve 1/4 cup of sugar into some wine, then pour it back into the whole thing? That would sweeten it without diluting it which makes sense to my newb mind. But, I realize 1/4 c. of sugar would be a lot sweeter than 1/4 c. of simple syrup.

My second question is: I've used a champagne yeast per instructions (Red Star Pasteur Champagne), and I assume that adding the sugar and then bottling without stabilizing is going to cause the cider* to fizz up and create a lot of bubbles and pressure. I am not really interested in that; so if I kill the yeast should I add less sugar since nothing is going to be eating it?

*(or is it wine that we're cheating and calling cider?)

 

[Schattenmann]

Oh, you don't have title editing enabled. Sorry, I meant to make my title more specific.

 

[sour_grapes]

Hi, Schattenmann, welcome to WMT. Thanks for the nice intro.

I do not know for sure what Massaccesi means by "dissolved sugar," but I have my own pet theory. I suspect he means simple syrup, but with a twist from your thinking. I believe one can make simple syrup in different concentrations. So, if you used 2 parts water to 1 part sugar you would get a different amount of sugar (for a given volume) than if you used 1 part water to 1 part sugar. Thus, my theory is that Massaccesi is taking that variable out of the equation, and just telling you how much solute (i.e., sugar in this case) that you should use, regardless of how much solvent (water in this case) you decide to use.

Of course, my theory could be a load of hooey!

 

[terrymck]

Dissolved sugar is just what it says it is. Sugar is one of those substances that will dissolve into water quite easily. Heating the water makes it go into solution quicker. The molecules get moving faster and makes more room. If you have ever made sugar water for hummingbirds it is 4 parts water and 1 part sugar heated up; a 4:1 solution.

 

[Schattenmann]

Dissolved sugar is just what it says it is. Sugar is one of those substances that will dissolve into water quite easily. Heating the water makes it go into solution quicker. The molecules get moving faster and makes more room. If you have ever made sugar water for hummingbirds it is 4 parts water and 1 part sugar heated up; a 4:1 solution.

Newb questions aside, I do have some experience dissolving sugar in water
Your answer demonstrates the dilemma: dissolved sugar is not a defined thing. Your idea of dissolved sugar, hummingbird water, would yield an extremely different (4x) result from someone who figured simple syrup (1:1). Explaining that sugar dissolves in water doesn't address the question.
If you repeated my run and I used simple syrup while you used hummingbird nectar, my cider would be 4x sweeter than yours even though we both dissolved sugar into water.

Hi, Schattenmann, welcome to WMT. Thanks for the nice intro.

I do not know for sure what Massaccesi means by "dissolved sugar," but I have my own pet theory. I suspect he means simple syrup, but with a twist from your thinking. I believe one can make simple syrup in different concentrations. So, if you used 2 parts water to 1 part sugar you would get a different amount of sugar (for a given volume) than if you used 1 part water to 1 part sugar. Thus, my theory is that Massaccesi is taking that variable out of the equation, and just telling you how much solute (i.e., sugar in this case) that you should use, regardless of how much solvent (water in this case) you decide to use.

Of course, my theory could be a load of hooey!

After looking at some other recipes online that came up when I Googled "dissolved sugar" it seems to me like you're correct: That he just means put 1/4 cup in the bucket and dissolve it—not to dissolve sugar in anything and then add the solution.
It seems like a case of "recover" where he's made an ambiguous term for something rather mundane instead of just saying "add 1/4 c. sugar per gallon."

Thanks, Sour Grapes! I didn't have that perspective at all; I tend to overthink.

(by recover I mean the humorous/incorrect/ambiguous use in recipes of "recover the wine" to mean put the cover back on, when the word recover means something entirely different, "retrieve" or "get well again".)


So, the second question was about stabilizing or not. The recipe doesn't call for stabilization before adding the sugar, I assume so that the drink is fizzy when you open it. It then says to age 3 mos. Without oxygen (since it's bottled), does the vast majority of that sugar remain undigested, making the product basically just as sweet as the day it was bottled? Or, if I plan to stabilize to avoid fizziness, should I maybe add X amount less sugar?

 

[wineforfun]

You need to add potassium sorbate if you are planning on backsweetening(adding sugar after the ferment is done). If not, you may have some rogue yeasties start to ferment that newly added sugar and create a "bottle bomb".

As far as the sugar addition, you should take x amount of ounces of wine and add x amount of sugar. Get it to almost where you like it(it will sweeten up more in the bottle with time) and then do the conversion for the gallon(s) you are working with.

 

[Schattenmann]

You need to add potassium sorbate if you are planning on backsweetening(adding sugar after the ferment is done). If not, you may have some rogue yeasties start to ferment that newly added sugar and create a "bottle bomb".

That's the odd thing about this recipe. In every other mention of adding sugar, he notes to stabilize first, but not in this one. I plan to, anyway, but here's what I'm working with. (recipe 3, cider method in the second column)

 

[wineforfun]

That's too funny. That is the same exact book I received with my equipment kit. I was just looking at those exact recipes last night as I am looking to do an apple wine.

I am not for sure with the cider recipe as he may be pushing toward a carbonated finished product. Someone will probably chime in here with more exact info for you.

My reference was with a traditional wine that is going to be backsweetened.

 

[wineinmd]

Yes, it looks like the extra sugar in the recipe after fermentation is complete is to add carbonation.

If you want a sweet, still (no bubbles) cider, then you'll need to add potassium sorbate prior to adding any sugar to make sure the yeast don't eat the new sugar.

If making sparkling cider, be extra careful with the amount of sugar added. There are priming calculators that tell you the amount of sugar to add (by weight) to achieve the desired level of carbonation.

For dry sparkling cider, just add the amount the priming calculator calls for. If you're trying to make a sweet, sparkling cider, you need to add extra sugar to get to the desired level of sweetness and then pasteurize the bottles once it gets to the carbonation level that you want or else the yeast will keep chowing down and you'll end up with bottle bombs.

 

[Schattenmann]

Bought some potassium sorbate this afternoon, and some French oak chips to test with a portion of the blackberry.

Thanks for you guys' help and advice!

 

[Schattenmann]

Well, last night I bottled 2 bottles each from both runs of blackberry wine (1 gal blackberry, 1 gal blackberry/Welch's); it may be (probably) early since they've only been racked twice, but I siphoned from the uppermost clear wine. I did this so I could add some medium toast French oak chips to the remainder. The package says 2-4 oz for 5-6 gallons, so I did ratios for 3 oz of oak.

The blackberry already had a pretty nice flavor, which surprised me because I was ready for something bitter given that it is only 1 month into its life, so I'm really hopeful about how it will turn out.

The blackberry-Welch's I'm a little more dubious about. As a beginner looking at a book full of fruit recipes that use added water, it didn't occur to me that grape wine is 100% juice. So, when I had leftover blackberries and decided to top off with Welch's, I accounted for how much juice would come from the blackberries, added a few cups of Welch's, then used the same amount of water as called for in the blackberry recipe. If I had thought about it, I wish I had not used any water. Since I was experimenting, I also added star anise, peppercorns, golden raisins, cardamom, and a few teaspoons of rose water.
Right now, the wine is pleasant, but thin. It tastes almost sweet, probably because of the rose water and anise. It's a fairly light pinkish-purple compared to the beautiful deep color of the blackberry-only. I'm hoping that the oak will give it a good kind of body boost. My brother refused to taste a tiny bit I poured for him so I drank it after a few hours and the taste was very bitter.

My plan for the oak is to let it sit for another month, siphon off 2 more bottles, then let the remainder sit for another month (package says max use is 2 mos).
So, by the time I'm done, from both gallons I'll have 2 bottles aged only with original ingredients, 2 bottles with 1 month of oak, and 1 bottle with 2 months of oak.


The cider just started to slow down its boil 2 days ago. It's extremely cloudy, but I don't know how picky I'll be about it being clear since I'm calling it cider rather than wine and 1 gallon of the juice that I started with was very cloudy unfiltered juice.
It is scaring me; I poured a tiny bit out of curiosity and it's positively undrinkable. I realize it's not supposed to be in the middle of ferment, but it's so sour that I can't imagine it tasting good later.

 

[BernardSmith]

Hi Schattenmann, and welcome. I don't know the book but I generally distrust recipes. Much prefer principles that explain how processes work and why I should add (or not) any ingredient to a wine. You say the cider tastes "so sour" but I wonder if you added acid blend... In my opinion, the reason to add acid blend is IF - IF the wine (or cider) needs a kick because the flavor is too bland then you may need to increase the amount of acidity in the wine, but a) apples tend to contain malic acid more than tartaric or citric acid but acid blend is dominated by tartaric acid and b) unless the pH is very high the yeast will have no problem converting the sugars to alcohol. In other words, the only time to add acid before the fermentation has stopped is if the must is too alkaline and the only reason to add acid after the fermentation has ended is because the wine does not have the kind of kick that additional acidity would bring to it. But generally speaking apples have a fair amount of malic acid in them and malic acid is a fairly strong acid even in small quantities
But that said, does it taste "sour" or bitter. Acidity should make the cider taste bitter. Sour is a different flavor and sour suggests that there may be an infection in the cider/wine. Sour comes from bacterial action on the sugars rather than the fungal action of yeast. Sour suggests that while your equipment may have been spotlessly clean your sanitation processes may not have prevented or removed the presence of lactic or brett bacteria. So, sour or bitter?
But does it perhaps taste "hot"? I ask that because it must be very warm just now in your neck of the woods. Fermentation really needs to take place at fairly low temperatures (around 60 IMO) . So if the ambient temperature is about 75 and the fermentation process itself raises the temperature of the must another 10 degrees you are fermenting at about 85.. At such high temps the yeast will most likely produce fusel alcohol and that is what gives the wine a burning sensation in your mouth. Over time it will mellow out but that can take many, many, many months...
So, is it "sour" or "bitter" or ..."hot"?

 

[Schattenmann]

Hi Schattenmann, and welcome. I don't know the book but I generally distrust recipes. Much prefer principles that explain how processes work and why I should add (or not) any ingredient to a wine. You say the cider tastes "so sour" but I wonder if you added acid blend... In my opinion, the reason to add acid blend is IF - IF the wine (or cider) needs a kick because the flavor is too bland then you may need to increase the amount of acidity in the wine, but a) apples tend to contain malic acid more than tartaric or citric acid but acid blend is dominated by tartaric acid and b) unless the pH is very high the yeast will have no problem converting the sugars to alcohol. ...
But that said, does it taste "sour" or bitter. Acidity should make the cider taste bitter. Sour is a different flavor and sour suggests that there may be an infection in the cider/wine. Sour comes from bacterial action on the sugars rather than the fungal action of yeast. Sour suggests that while your equipment may have been spotlessly clean your sanitation processes may not have prevented or removed the presence of lactic or brett bacteria. So, sour or bitter?
But does it perhaps taste "hot"? I ask that because it must be very warm just now in your neck of the woods. Fermentation really needs to take place at fairly low temperatures (around 60 IMO) . So if the ambient temperature is about 75 and the fermentation process itself raises the temperature of the must another 10 degrees you are fermenting at about 85.. At such high temps the yeast will most likely produce fusel alcohol and that is what gives the wine a burning sensation in your mouth. Over time it will mellow out but that can take many, many, many months...
So, is it "sour" or "bitter" or ..."hot"?

Speak of the Devil... I was just reading some of your comments in vernsgal's blackberry thread (which I wish I'd seen a month ago!) and had quoted one of your posts to transfer over here and ask a resulting question (see below).

But first, to answer your questions:
I'm fermenting in my kitchen floor, the AC is set to 72-73°F. It does have a little bit of a burning to it; hopefully that's the ginger and not fusel.
On the distinction between sour and bitter, I think bitter might be the more accurate term. And given the difference, I sure hope so! The apple is still coming through, but it is a very biting drink.
I did use 1 tsp/gal of acid blend, following the recipe. I did not test pH on blackberry or apple since no one mentioned it (neither beginner's book nor brew store employees). I'll do that going forward after vernsgal's thread and some other things I've read.

Thanks for addressing that, I hope my reply advances an understanding of what (if anything) might be going on.

Hey turok, forgive me I don't understand. What do u use to top up the primary fermentor if not water?

Obviously, I cannot speak for Turock but one of the things I do is to make slightly more than say the three or five gallons I want and so I have some additional wine which I store in the fridge from which I can top up the carboy after I have racked. Other people talk of adding similar wines to replace the lost volume and others use glass marbles. Another way would be to use smaller carboys (so rack from five to a three gallon plus additional sized bottles and carboys). and I don't know how wise this is but I have seen many photos of carboys that have not been topped up because presumably the wine maker is relying on the constant production of CO2 to act as a protective blanket.

So after reading this, my question is that it seems the point of topping off with glass marbles or going to successively smaller carboys is less about the volume of wine produced (negating the loss to lees/racking) and actually about reducing the amount of air in the carboy.
After taking out 2 bottles from each gallon, I've got a fair amount of empty space left in my carboys; should I transfer them to something smaller or drop something inert like marbles into them to reduce the air in the vessel?

 

[BernardSmith]

Either option is good because what you ant to achieve is carboy filled up inside the neck. That reduces the amount of surface area of the wine that can be exposed to the air and that reduces the problems associated with oxidation but there is a third option. Vacuumpumpman here on this forum has designed and built a device that pulls a vacuum from the carboy and so prevents oxidation in a very different way. I am not a salesman for Steve (Vacuumpumpman) but he is a good guy and the devices he makes and sells are really extra-ordinary. You may want to IM him.

 

[Schattenmann]

Either option is good because what you ant to achieve is carboy filled up inside the neck. That reduces the amount of surface area of the wine that can be exposed to the air and that reduces the problems associated with oxidation but there is a third option. Vacuumpumpman here on this forum has designed and built a device that pulls a vacuum from the carboy and so prevents oxidation in a very different way. I am not a salesman for Steve (Vacuumpumpman) but he is a good guy and the devices he makes and sells are really extra-ordinary. You may want to IM him.

I've seen Steve's pump; I'd like one eventually, but that's down the road (unemployed—blackberries are free )

Sale in the juice aisle today, so I got a 96 oz bottle of Welch's Concord, 32 oz of Knudsen Black Cherry, and 32 of blueberry.

I've made up a must of 96 oz concord, 32 cherry, and 8 blueberry for the experiment thread, it's all fun right now. The mix tastes good. Will use Red Star Montrachet since I've got half a packet coming up on the 1 month mark. Plan to oak in the secondary since I've got the remainder of a pouch and it doesn't seem like something you want to let sit around too long.
I'll be patient with a couple bottles, maybe take one for glögg this winter, and sweeten one to drink early.

 

[Schattenmann]

Alright, after doing some reading:
The book that came with the kit doesn't say anything about campden except to sterilize the must, but a few things I've read since say to use a tablet after fermentation is complete and again before bottling.
How important is that? I've done two rackings with the 2 gals of blackberry (primary to secondary, and again at .990 SG); should I use a campden at my next racking, or put one in now?
I had also pulled 2 bottles off each gallon before seeing anything about additional campden; should I divide a tablet between the four bottles? They're not corked because I pulled them off to early to keep them off the oak chips and knew they were still outgassing CO2; I put some Saran wrap over the tops.

 

[Schattenmann]

I bought some pH strips, here's the result on the apple cider

Also took some to the LHBS for them to taste and give their opinion on sour vs bitter vs hot, hopefully they can give me some insight.