It Is Done

[Boatboy24]

Don't you need to cold stabilize after the pot bicarb?

 

[Johnd]

Don't you need to cold stabilize after the pot bicarb?

Eventually, but I'd like another shot at completing MLF now that I've got the pH up a bit. If I do CS now, since my pH is below 3.6, the pH will drop and I'll be back in the same boat(boy).

It's a bit complicated, but as I understand my situation, my pot bicarbonate has reduced the tartaric acid, thus lowering the TA and raising the pH. You can only use pot bicarbonate to raise pH until you've neutralized all of your tartaric acid, as it only works on tartaric acid. Sod bicarbonate (double salt method) reduces tartaric and malic in similar proportions, but I didn't elect to do that since my adjustment was relatively minor.

So after MLF, and then CS, then I suspect my TA will be quite low, as I've used up tartaric with the pot bicarbonate and changed malic to the less powerful lactic. I'll probably then have to boost the TA and lower pH back to a safer range. That's worst case scenario, but possible. Did I miss anything? Clear as mud?

 

[ceeaton]

Eventually, but I'd like another shot at completing MLF now that I've got the pH up a bit. If I do CS now, since my pH is below 3.6, the pH will drop and I'll be back in the same boat(boy).

It's a bit complicated, but as I understand my situation, my pot bicarbonate has reduced the tartaric acid, thus lowering the TA and raising the pH. You can only use pot bicarbonate to raise pH until you've neutralized all of your tartaric acid, as it only works on tartaric acid. Sod bicarbonate (double salt method) reduces tartaric and malic in similar proportions, but I didn't elect to do that since my adjustment was relatively minor.

So after MLF, and then CS, then I suspect my TA will be quite low, as I've used up tartaric with the pot bicarbonate and changed malic to the less powerful lactic. I'll probably then have to boost the TA and lower pH back to a safer range. That's worst case scenario, but possible. Did I miss anything? Clear as mud?

Your explanation makes sense to me, and follows what I've learned on this site. Haven't done what you are doing so can't say if it will work, but please keep us up to date as to your steps and what the results are. This is a great thread to learn from, thanks John!

 

[Johnd]

@ceeaton , glad you find it interesting. You know, I'm starting to wonder if I got some defective MLB, my Chileans aren't doing crap, the cab is at 3.5 pH, shouldn't be an issue.

Been racking my brain, both VP41's ordered and delivered in the hot months, wonder if the heat could have killed it before I even pitched it. I have two vials of White Labs liquid MLB that was delivered packed with dry ice. Might dump it in for laughs.....

 

[ceeaton]

Probably worth a try. Don't know how heat sensitive they are but my package of CH35 says store below 18*C, which converts to 64.4*F, so you may be onto something there. I think I ordered mine back in April, so it depended on the day it was delivered as to the outdoor temperature.

Mine seems to have done most of the job now that I am regularly stirring it, so I'm blaming myself for my issues this summer.

 

[Boatboy24]

@ceeaton , glad you find it interesting. You know, I'm starting to wonder if I got some defective MLB, my Chileans aren't doing crap, the cab is at 3.5 pH, shouldn't be an issue.

Been racking my brain, both VP41's ordered and delivered in the hot months, wonder if the heat could have killed it before I even pitched it. I have two vials of White Labs liquid MLB that was delivered packed with dry ice. Might dump it in for laughs.....

My Enoferm Beta didn't do squat either - on 4 different wines, all with good pH. I'm pitching some VP41 today.

 

[Johnd]

My Enoferm Beta didn't do squat either - on 4 different wines, all with good pH. I'm pitching some VP41 today.

I hope it does the trick for you. I really suspect that my VP41 was exposed to high temps in shipping, those dark brown trucks get roasty hot down here in the summer. ever try WLP 675?

 

[geek]

I hope it does the trick for you. I really suspect that my VP41 was exposed to high temps in shipping, those dark brown trucks get roasty hot down here in the summer. ever try WLP 675?

Reviews are not good on this site, so a search and see but maybe that strain is very picky too and the wine needs to have all the right conditions.
I did try one way back when I didn't check any numbers in the wine and didn't do the job for me, but maybe the wine back then was out of balance, who knows.

 

[Boatboy24]

I hope it does the trick for you. I really suspect that my VP41 was exposed to high temps in shipping, those dark brown trucks get roasty hot down here in the summer. ever try WLP 675?

Never have.

 

[stickman]

Here is the shelf life info. They seem to indicate that the culture can take some heat, though 86F isn't much of a test. Even then, they back pedal and say excursions should be less than 48 hours. I'm sure not absolutely necessary, but it looks like the expectation is to be delivered overnight with an ice pack during hot months.

 

[Johnd]

Here is the shelf life info. They seem to indicate that the culture can take some heat, though 86F isn't much of a test. Even then, they back pedal and say excursions should be less than 48 hours. I'm sure not absolutely necessary, but it looks like the expectation is to be delivered overnight with an ice pack during hot months.

Good info, thanks for sharing it, I dug a bit but never saw that info. Sadly, as you noted, 86F is 10 degrees below my summer highs. In the back of a brown truck in summer, even higher.

Since I'll need some before fall, I'll have them ship overnight with an ice pack, probably go ahead and get a bunch of packages since I'll already be paying for the shipping.

 

[Johny99]

Here is the shelf life info. They seem to indicate that the culture can take some heat, though 86F isn't much of a test. Even then, they back pedal and say excursions should be less than 48 hours. I'm sure not absolutely necessary, but it looks like the expectation is to be delivered overnight with an ice pack during hot months.

Storage temperature is interesting, "0C/-18F". Hopefully, they mean the reverse. I keep mine in the fridge at ~40F.

 

[stickman]

Your correct, it should be -18C or 0F for the low end of storage temperature.

 

[ceeaton]

Good info, thanks for sharing it, I dug a bit but never saw that info. Sadly, as you noted, 86F is 10 degrees below my summer highs. In the back of a brown truck in summer, even higher.

Since I'll need some before fall, I'll have them ship overnight with an ice pack, probably go ahead and get a bunch of packages since I'll already be paying for the shipping.

Just for another angle, I ordered supplies for my Fall wines on Thursday night, MoreWinemaking.com uses FedEx Home delivery, which gets to me the next day. So I figured I'd be fine, since I usually get deliveries before Noon. Well, the package went to the wrong terminal, so it looks like I won't get it until Monday, so I emailed MoreWinemaking.com and here is the response I got:
-----

Hello Craig,

Thank you for emailing in your concerns. We're sorry that you didn't receive your order yesterday, however your yeast and bacteria are fine. Dry Malolactic Bacteria and Dry Wine Yeast require cold temperatures for long term storage. Exposing these to warmer temperatures for 5 days to even two weeks will not damage the yeast and bacteria.

Thank You,
Graciela Hernandez

Customer Service Representative
MoreFlavor, Inc
1-800-600-0033

On Sun, Aug 21 at 10:34 AM , Craig Eaton <[email protected]> wrote:
My order didn't arrive yesterday as scheduled. It is now sitting on a Fed Ex truck somewhere getting hot. Hopefully the yeast and MLB will be okay. I'm sad.


Your MoreWine! invoice number 4226680 has shipped.
Your tracking number(s):
783867525108
Please tell us what you think of your support experience.

-----

So they seem to think it is fine getting warm for up to two weeks. Unlike UPS'es big brown trucks, at least the Fed Ex ones are white!

 

[Johnd]

Me wonders if they are relying on the data we read earlier in where it was exposed to "high" temps of 86F.

 

[ceeaton]

Me wonders if they are relying on the data we read earlier in where it was exposed to "high" temps of 86F.

Well, this should be a good test. It sat on the truck from about 6 pm Friday until this morning. Came right after I left for work (have to put youngest on bus around 8:15 am), so it is now sitting in the sun on my front porch for another hour or so. Even though it was a beautiful morning, that box will warm up nicely in the sun. It won't be brought inside until my older three get back from school around 2:30 pm.

Please feel free to remind me this fall when I'm complaining about a long MLF is taking... We'll see how the yeast held up to being warmed up a bit in the next month or so when I pitch it.

 

[Johnd]

@ceeaton I hope it all works out for you. I'm just hoping that my slight raise in pH on the Zin does the trick there, and that the Chileans are making progress, it's only been a few weeks for them. Will probably do a chromo in a few weeks to see where they are.

 

[Johnd]

So this is my latest chromo, T, M, L standards left, 4 wines to the right. First wine from the left is the Zin I've been battling, lowish pH and sulfited just a tad, little to no progress there. Next over is the Chilean Cab, the highest pH of my wines, and showing the best progress. Ch. Malbec all of the way to the right, tad more progress than the Zin, similarly lowish pH, The Cab/Malbec blend has made some progress. There's a lesson here for me.

Zin pH= 3.3 post ferm, and at both MLB pitchings, poor MLF progress

Malbec pH= 3.36 post ferm, poor MLF progress

Cab pH= 3.48 post ferm, best progress

Cab / Malbec blend 75/25 pH=3.42, midrange progress

VP41 rehydrated with ActiML, and fed with OptiML per recommendations.

As @ibglowin posted his experience earlier, despite the reportedly lower pH tolerance of VP41, noticeably better results were observed in my wines with pH's in the 3.4+ range. One little test does not a fact make, but I'm going with it into the future.

Looks like my cab will be barrelled before the Zin. At the time I sulfited the Zin (cuz I got scared after 4 months), the pH was adjusted up from 3.3 to 3.46, next time around, I'm betting all goes well.

 

[Johnd]

Haven't updated this post in a while, but I tasted the Zin yesterday, which has been barrelled for nearly 5 months. I was very disappointed with the level of oak, my barrel seems to be trending to neutral, so I dropped in a M+ French oak wine stix.

The wine itself was pretty decent, despite my decision not to finish MLF. pH is right at 3.5, an while it's still a tad tart at first sip, the tartness has improved a great deal. This is a really fruity wine, almost candy like aroma, I don't know how to describe it, but it's a good flavor. Medium mouth feel, bout the same on finish, and the tannins are less harsh now and pleasant. In just needs some oak. I'll let it get to 6 months in the barrel and move it to glass, oak and adjust as needed.

 

[stickman]

Very interesting John, I also described it similar in post #2 of this thread, a candy like aromatic that is complex at the same time, and is difficult to describe. My vintage was a 2013, made 20 gallons and there isn't much left, maybe three 750ml bottles and three magnums, it's been very good.