Kieselsol and Chitosan Test results

[Brant]

If you want an experiment, reserve a gallon from each batch, unfiltered, and taste test those 5 bottles against the filtered wine starting 6 months after bottling.

I'm not advocating not filtering. That's a personal choice. I would like to see folks making these simple tests and sharing their results, as it helps others forming their own opinions.

I'm definitely on board with running an experiment. Unfortunately, I'm approximately 1 year out from bottling my next batch. I'm all caught up with my wines except for the 18 gallons I just started that will be going into my recouped barrel after about 6 months aging in carboys. So yeah, I'll post back in about 1 year.

Maybe someone else wouldn't mind picking up the torch and running an experiment sooner.

Any takers???

 

[Brant]

I'm going to have a friend come over, and blind taste the wines. Same thing -- aerated and unaerated samples of fined and unfined Rhone, then do the same for the Super Tuscan. I'll be doing in blind as well. While I'm most interested in his feedback about sensory impressions, we'll be looking at ranking as well.

Bryan, I can Venmo you some cash to pay for shipping and inconvenience if you want to send me two bottles this fall (after the heat of summer). You can label them 1 and 2 so I can run a blind tasting for you! Just shoot me a PM if your interested. I'd love to be part of your experiment!

 

[winemaker81]

In my research I read that taste and color weren't affected until you filter below .5 (point 5) micron. At 1 micron the color I see in the filter is colored particulate. Even at 1 micron I still find a light dusting of particulate in the bottom of the carboys, so there is some very fine stuff in there.

Interesting. That does make sense.

I wonder if we focus too much on crystal-clear competition quality wines.

As much as I hate sediment in the bottle, I find that I agree with you. I have found that if I give the wine time and rack carefully, I rarely have sediment, even after 5 years. So much is focused on presentation, that it affects what vegetables are available in grocery stores.

I'm definitely on board with running an experiment. Unfortunately, I'm approximately 1 year out from bottling my next batch.

I don't see this as a problem -- this testing could go on for years. I'd love to see long ranging tests of wines with specific products used/not-used in many categories. We are adding to the body of knowledge.

 

[Raptor99]

So much is focused on presentation, that it affects what vegetables are available in grocery stores.

Fruits and vegetables in the grocery store are bred for appearance and shelf life. Flavor and nutrition are purely secondary at best. Last night we had some fresh bok choy from the garden. It was way, way better than what we buy in the store.

Maybe we need to help our friends to rethink this. A small amount of sediment in the bottle is a sign that this is a high quality artisan wine, not a factory wine. It is evidence of authenticity, not a flaw.

 

[ratflinger]

Except that I always seem to get the dregs. I can deal with some particulate, but not sludge. BIL brought some wine he had made from grapes, I swear 1/3 of the bottle was sludge. Of course he has no patience with his wine making.

 

[Raptor99]

@ratflinger 1/3 a bottle! I can tolerate up to 1/8 inch of sediment at the bottom, but not much more. Bulk aging for 8-9 months usually leaves little or no sediment in the bottle without any other treatment.

The lees from racking have other uses. Last night I made a nice pear smoothie from the lees leftover from racking my pear wine. Add a little simple syrup and some cream, stir, enjoy! If the fermentation was healthy with no off flavors, the lees are delicious.

 

[winemaker81]

Except that I always seem to get the dregs. I can deal with some particulate, but not sludge. BIL brought some wine he had made from grapes, I swear 1/3 of the bottle was sludge. Of course he has no patience with his wine making.

Sorry, that's user error. Well, actually two -- your BIL for not having patience and you for accepting the glass!

 

[Rice_Guy]

The whole process of making wine is cleaning the juice.
We bag filter to remove pulp > we ferment to remove sugar > we apply racking to remove yeast > we apply special dirt to remove protein > we filter to make sweetening safe ,,, etc

wonder if we focus too much on crystal-clear competition quality wines. The premise is that even a tiny bit of sediment in the bottle is unacceptable. . . .

how much is enough? from a safe foods point historical was drying/ creating alcohol/ creating acid/ ,,, in the last century we added retorted food and freezing and chemicals , ,,, and may eventually have pulse electric field/ ultra pressure/ gamma rays

HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

 

[Raptor99]

how much is enough?

That is the key question. I wouldn't age my wine on gross lees, although some winemakers do age on fine lees using sur lie. I usually don't worry about 1/4 inch or less of fine lees in my carboys during bulk aging. Is a light dusting of sediment in the bottle a problem from a food safety point of view? Would it negatively affect the flavor or aging potential?

 

[Rice_Guy]

lees are positive for age, they act as an antioxidant
lees can be negative for flavor generating break down notes

 

[ratflinger]

@winemaker81 - Bryan, do you still whip the wine to release CO2 even though you have stopped using the K&C? My table wines go out 7 months before I even try them, I would assume that length of time should release the gas. Just curious.

 

[Bmd2k1]

I personally do Not use K & C -- and just let bulk aging handle things. So far, so great with that approach. I've only had one stubborn vino -- a Viognier that I recently bottled still had a small amount of sediment after aging and multiple rackings. C'est la vie. The uber fun journey of Vintnering continues...

Cheers!

 

[winemaker81]

@winemaker81 - Bryan, do you still whip the wine to release CO2 even though you have stopped using the K&C? My table wines go out 7 months before I even try them, I would assume that length of time should release the gas. Just curious.

I degas all wines, but do a lot less than most recommend. 1 minute of stirring with a drill mounted rod is sufficient, and it's a vigorous stir, not whipping. It doesn't completely degas the wine, which finishes over the next few weeks.

 

[winemaker81]

The next iteration of taste testing happens tomorrow at @mainshipfred's. I'll post our results in a few days.

 

[winemaker81]

That "few days" took longer than anticipated. One of the many drawbacks of moving 750 miles away from family is that when ya see 'em, it consumes your time. The plus is that we get to spend time together, even if it's just a few days.

Fred (@mainshipfred), Beth & David (@VinesnBines), Eric (@Cynewulf), Kelly (@kvaden), & Greg (@berrycrush), my brother, and I met at Fred's shop, and we tasted a LOT of wine. A lot of good wine.

My brother's takeaway is that he likes Chambourcin and Marquette, neither of which he had heard of before. He was a winemaker in the very distant past, and drinks primarily Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot in recent years, so liking Chambourcin and Marquette enough to mention it several times is actually surprising.

My summarized notes of tasting my wines:

Super Tuscan

• unfined is "more", meaning it has more oomph than the fined
• fined is subdued
• fined has evidence of volatile acid and bitterness, while the unfined is fruity
• unfined is fruitier
• fined displays more alcohol flavor

Overall, the unfined Super Tuscan was preferred.

Rhone Blend

• fined displays more bitterness, while one person thought the unfined more bitter
• unfined displayed oxidation, preferring the fined
• conversely, someone else thought the fined displayed oxidation
• one person preferred the fined, while another preferred the unfined
• fined was subtle

Opinions on the Rhone Blend were very divided.

I found the Super Tuscan fined was more bitter, as I noted in my first tasting notes, but the Rhone was less distinct.

 

[winemaker81]

A few days after the tasting at Fred's shop, my niece tasted the wines.

Super Tuscan

• Unfined has a much stronger nose
• Fined is definitely more bitter

Rhone Blend

• Unfined has more grape flavor and stronger nose
• No difference in bitterness

Overall, her reactions agree with the tasting at Fred's shop. The Super Tuscan is more clear cut, while the Rhone Blend is less distinct.

I'm going to conduct the same tasting with other people in upcoming months.

 

[Rice_Guy]

That "few days" took longer than anticipated. One of the mFred (@mainshipfred), Beth & David (@VinesnBines), Eric (@Cynewulf), Kelly (@kvaden), & Greg (@berrycrush), my brother, and I met at Fred's shop, and we tasted a LOT of wine. A lot of good wine. . . . My summarized notes of tasting my wines:

Super Tuscan

• unfined is "more", meaning it has more oomph than the fined
• fined is subdued
• fined has evidence of volatile acid and bitterness, while the unfined is fruity
• unfined is fruitier
• fined displays more alcohol flavor

Overall, the unfined Super Tuscan was preferred.

Rhone Blend

• fined displays more bitterness, while one person thought the unfined more bitter
• unfined displayed oxidation, preferring the fined
• conversely, someone else thought the fined displayed oxidation
• one person preferred the fined, while another preferred the unfined
• fined was subtle

Opinions on the Rhone Blend were very divided.

I found the Super Tuscan fined was more bitter, as I noted in my first tasting notes, but the Rhone was less distinct.

Wish I was there,

 

[Shurt1073]

That "few days" took longer than anticipated. One of the many drawbacks of moving 750 miles away from family is that when ya see 'em, it consumes your time. The plus is that we get to spend time together, even if it's just a few days.

Fred (@mainshipfred), Beth & David (@VinesnBines), Eric (@Cynewulf), Kelly (@kvaden), & Greg (@berrycrush), my brother, and I met at Fred's shop, and we tasted a LOT of wine. A lot of good wine.

I bet it was a good time with great wines! What an awesome opportunity.

 

[winemaker81]

Wish I was there,

Next time?

I bet it was a good time with great wines! What an awesome opportunity.

It really was.

 

[winemaker81]

I realized I never updated my post regarding the results of the tastings in July, so I did that tonight.

https://wine.bkfazekas.com/kieselsol-and-chitosan-test-results/