WineXpert Kit taste - red vs. white

[kat50496]

I apologize in advance for the following long post:
Wow Mike, those are some pretty damning remarks to make against an entire manufacturer’s line of goods. And especially after only one trial of one product out of a pretty extensive offering – and a limited release offering at that!

How do we know that this was not the taste profile the manufacturer was going for and after all – attention all wine snobs – the “Apothic Red” crowd represents a very large market share in the U.S. and around the world, much like the “Mateus” crowd of the 60’s and 70’s. This is why there are so many legitimate wineries making “non-red wine drinkers” blends today. I’ve also read a lot on this and other forums about the dreaded kit taste, and to my limited knowledge I don’t recall ever seeing it described as semi sweet, or slightly sweet.

Now, I have not been making wine for very long, but do know that kit wines are what they are – passable representations of different types and styles of commercial wines, and that some kits are definitely better than others. I also know that many of us with less experience really look to the moderators and senior members for advice, and as importantly, recommendations on how and what to make. I also know that you have provided a wealth of knowledge to this forum and to several of us over the last several years, and I really appreciate it, but I really do think that this kind of review could potentially persuade people from trying a product that may be a. less expensive, b. more convenient to procure and c. easier to make.

I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that most of my kits have been WE kits, but only because that is the only brand carried by my LHBS (let’s not get into business practice discussions – not the intention of this post nor does it have any relevance to the product itself). But I have ordered several CC Showcase and RJS Winery series kits from George (based on recommendations on the forum BTW), and am finding them to be very, very good. This would not, however, justify my saying that based on a single experience, that no one should buy a WE kit in the future. Mike, I know those are not your exact words, but based on your knowledge, position as a moderator and senior member status, are how some people may read it.

Just my $.02 on the subject and I hope to continue to get great advice from everyone on this forum. Thanks to you all

 

[BobF]

Keith - You make some good points that should serve as a reminder to those with 'senior' and 'moderator' status:

"Be clear, concise and certain in what you post. When posting an opinion, make sure it's clear that it's an opinion you're presenting. There are many more people reading than there are posting."

Now for an opposing view re: Mike's comments.

1. Mike was very clear about what his experience is and what he didn't like.
2. Anybody's opinion here should be taken as ... an opinion.

I for one was very happy to see how Mike approached the expression of his opinion. Full disclosure + full honesty - it doesn't get better than that!

I get the feeling sometimes that people hold back on their opinions b/c they don't want to offend another member or a sponsor. I wish this wasn't the case.

As long as people recognize the fact that one person's opinion is one person's opinion AND that opinions about products or practices aren't intended as personal attacks, everything should be great!

There's a lot of science to winemaking. Facts are facts and aren't really open for debate.

There is also a lot of art to winemaking. Lotsa' room for friendly debate and personal improv in approach and process.

There is a lot of personal taste in winemaking. There's no accounting for taste!

Good Job, Mike!

 

[ibglowin]

I think the bold faced disclaimer in my sig sums up things nicely. Anything I post is my own personal opinion. Thats all. Nothing more, nothing less. I posted my tasting notes for this kit at 8 months at the time of bottling. I know many people will LOVE this wine, my wife loved the sample, so we have one like and one dislike at 8 months.

I try and be completely honest about my reviews. If something taste great at bottling and then at 18-24 months it turns out to taste like strawberry wine instead of Pinot Noir I will post an update stating so at some point you can be assured. If this wine settles down and the funky sweetness (KT in my opinion) goes away in 18-24 months you can bet I will post update along the way stating this wine turned out fantastic and "I wish I would have bought two!" or something similar.

 

[Geronimo]

I'd just extend what Keith and Bob are saying with special notice that Mike changed the kit he made quite a bit. Adding a grape pack and oak will definitely result in a different wine than someone making the kit "as is".

 

[wookey]

I noticed that sweetness in WE kits too. No matter if the kit was made according to instruction or with extended bulk aging. I think it was done deliberately by WE to improve early drinkability. Some people want to drink their wine early and WinExpert gives them that. I agree, if this taste goes away, I am all for it, but if it stays even at 18 months as in my LE Shiraz Viogner it is a bit disappointing.

Wookey

 

[robie]

I have been around wine forums for quite awhile now. These two observations come to mind at this moment:
1) W.E. kits DO have a reputation for having a noticeable KT, justified or not; you be the judge.
2) Some (not all) who prefer W.E. kits tend to be very edgy about anyone not having a favorable opinion of a W.E. kit wine's outcome. I don't remember reading a post where someone bristled when another wrote a not-so-favorable post about a CC, MM, or RJS kit. And I really don't know why that is.

If all I ever read were favorably responses, I would be a little leery. Wouldn't you?

If you don't agree with someone's assessment of (anything), state your own, that's why this is called a "forum". Don't take an alternative opinion personal. As long as a stated opinion is honest and presented tastefully/tactfully, don't let it under your skin. And yes, there certainly are ways to disagree in such a manner as to feel someone just got stabbed in the gut. The moderators do try to nip such things in the bud even though every once in a while one will slip through for a time.

Mike's opinion is his own; it was stated tactfully and I don't believe it was intended to bruise anyone. I don't know how he could have presented it any better. I don't read anything that suggests he has some ulterior motive.

Please understand that moderators are entitled to their opinions, too. Don't ever assume anything we express is the "official opinion" of this forum unless we expressly state it as such. (Just like this post, it is just a forum member expressing his own personal opinion.)

What a privileged we have, at least in some parts of the world, to enjoy the freedom of expressing our opinions on a forum like this one. The only caveat, at least for this particular forum, is that those opinions must be expressed respectfully, tactfully and without accusation.

Relax and have fun; that's why this forum exists.

 

[robie]

I'd just extend what Keith and Bob are saying with special notice that Mike changed the kit he made quite a bit. Adding a grape pack and oak will definitely result in a different wine than someone making the kit "as is".

In my opinion, adding a grape pack would only improve a kit. Same for the oak, that is, as long as the oak is not over done.

I added a cab grape pack to a W.E. Malbec kit. It seemed to have added some nice body, although I didn't make the same kit without the grape pack as a comparison.

I made a W.E. Brunello kit, to which I wish I had added a grape pack. The taste is OK, but in the mouth the wine feels almost as thin as water. I am very disappointed in its outcome. It is over two years old and I don't think it will ever be what I had hoped. This is why now I never make a red kit that does not include a grape pack.

 

[Geronimo]

In my opinion, adding a grape pack would only improve a kit. Same for the oak, that is, as long as the oak is not over done.

I agree, but a change is a change. I just don't think it's entirely fair. All this is coming from my limited success with WE kits.... the 2 best early drinking kits are CCs and the 2 worst kits I've done to date are WEs. I'm certainly not disagreeing with you OR Mike.

 

[robie]

I agree, but a change is a change. I just don't think it's entirely fair. All this is coming from my limited success with WE kits.... the 2 best early drinking kits are CCs and the 2 worst kits I've done to date are WEs. I'm certainly not disagreeing with you OR Mike.

It's all a matter of personal preferences and most of those are based on our experiences. Each one of our experiences can be and probably are very different. That's life!!!

We should all make our wines from sources we really like and trust. For a wine maker, that's as good as it gets!

 

[tonyt]

2) Some (not all) who prefer W.E. kits tend to be very edgy about anyone not having a favorable opinion of a W.E. kit wine's outcome. I don't remember reading a post where someone bristled when another wrote a not-so-favorable post about a CC, MM, or RJS kit. And I really don't know why that is.

I too have noticed that and believe it may be because so many lhbs only carry WE kits. So a local community may only have WE as a local option.

 

[bstnh1]

I have found that with any kit, red or white, regardless of the manufacturer, you need to age it at least one year before you can pass any judgement on it. The taste varies almost from month to month during that first year.

 

[wood1954]

In my experience, the taste improves with age. when I think of wine that costs $2 a bottle i don't worry too much about a little sweetness, by the time it goes away i've drunk or given it all away any way. the more expensive wines from WE seem just fine after a year. i went out to dinner the other night and ha d house wine that had terrible vegetal tastes to it, way inferior than my WE $2 a bottle wine. most of my wines end up tasting great. the ones that turn out a little sweet i give to my sister and her friends. Any time you process juice it's going to turn out different than fresh juice. I thought one of my worst kits was a WE Valpolicella, after a year it's really good. Two other cheap WE kits, Mezza Luna rouge and a Merlot turned out a bit too soft and sweet, but the cheap WE Cabernet is very good also. the flaver and texture got better on all three. My three higher end WE kits are still aging but i sample them once in a while and they are going to be really good. I guess all our kit wines have a kit taste as they are all kit wines. I need to get some frozen juice buckets and fresh grapes to make wine and compare. I do know most of my friends couldn't tell my wines from good store bought wines in a blind taste test.