Lallzyme in fruit wines

[Stressbaby]

I got into winemaking via fruit wines, but I've gradually moved into grapes as well. What I've noticed is that almost every set of red grape wine instructions uses either Lallzyme EX or EX-V.

It seems to me that fruit wines would benefit just as much from the enzymatic work of Lallzyme as red grape wines do. I've used it on a couple of fruit wines now, a blackberry-elderberry blend, and a fig wine. Although it is too early yet to come to any conclusions, it makes sense to me to use it routinely with dark berry fruits, and possibly with any fruit wine.

Thoughts? Is there any reason not to use Lallzyme in fruit wines?

 

[stickman]

Pectic enzyme formulations are mixtures of several different enzymes in specific ratios to perform the advertised function. For example, Lallzyme EX-V is the same as the EX formulation, but includes an additional enzyme that is more aggressive to degrading the grape cells. Most of the formulations will degrade pectins in general, so they can be used in place of generic pectic enzymes, as they will aid clarification and settling, but again they are more aggressive to breaking down the fruit pulp etc. I don't have experience making fruit wines other than grapes, but it seems like the main negative would be the possibility of causing some "delicate" fruits to disintegrate, maybe causing excessive fluffy lees etc.(just speculating).

 

[Stressbaby]

Pectic enzyme formulations are mixtures of several different enzymes...

Are you talking here about Lallzyme or straight pectic enzyme? I always understood pectic enzyme to be pectinase, one specific enzyme. Lallzyme has cellulase and/or hemicellulase as well.

 

[jburtner]

I used lallzyme-C or something like that for some light fruit wines. All i can say so far is that they still turn into "wine" and it tastes good so i'm not throwing it out....

Cheers!
-jb

 

[stickman]

Pectinase or pectic enzymes generally doesn't refer to one enzyme, it's a group of enzymes that degrade pectin, although any particular product sold called "Pectinase" may contain only one enzyme, in most cases it is a mixture tailored to the specific application.

 

[Turock]

Lallzyme is an improved pectic enzyme. You ALWAYS need pectic enzyme for fruit wines, as there's alot of pulp to break down. We've been using Lallzyme C-Max ever since it first came out and we are very happy with it as it seems to aid in better clarification. In fact, improved clarity of wines is one of it's benefits since it is a more rapid de-pectinase than regular pectic enzyme, according to the manufacturer. We have very dense fruit wine musts because we use no water. So we have lots of solids to clarify out and even a better pectinase will not always be enough. So we also add tannin and many of our ferments get an addition of bentonite as well. This triple attack works very well for us. It's been a long time since we've had to fight with wines, in the secondary, to clear up.

 

[Stressbaby]

Lallzyme is an improved pectic enzyme. You ALWAYS need pectic enzyme for fruit wines, as there's alot of pulp to break down. We've been using Lallzyme C-Max ever since it first came out and we are very happy with it as it seems to aid in better clarification. In fact, improved clarity of wines is one of it's benefits since it is a more rapid de-pectinase than regular pectic enzyme, according to the manufacturer. We have very dense fruit wine musts because we use no water. So we have lots of solids to clarify out and even a better pectinase will not always be enough. So we also add tannin and many of our ferments get an addition of bentonite as well. This triple attack works very well for us. It's been a long time since we've had to fight with wines, in the secondary, to clear up.

I've always used pectic enzyme. I guess my question was about the use of Lallzyme instead of or in addition to the pectic.

Lallzyme is supposed to have cellulases in addition to pectinases, and presumably the pectic enzyme would only have pectinases.

 

[stickman]

Here are the data sheets that show what enzymes and ratios that are contained in the various Lallzyme products. The EX and EXV versions look similar, except that the EXV is twice the strength and has a slightly higher ratio of Pectin Methyl Esterase. The CMax is similar in strength as the EXV, but slightly different ratios of the pectinases are used.
Back the original question, a generic pectinase is probably primarily Polygalacturonase, but without the data sheet the composition is not really known, as even the Lallzyme data sheet loosely refers to all of the components as "pectinases". Just my opinion, but I think any of the formulations would perform at least as good or better than a generic pectinase, but it is more a question of dosage. The EX being half the strength of the others, is a bit more gentle, and therefore would require a higher dose under tough conditions.

View attachment Lallzyme EXV spec sheet.pdf

View attachment Lallzyme EX spec sheet.pdf

View attachment Lallzyme CMAX spec sheet.pdf

 

[Turock]

stickman---Remember that pectic enzyme is the ONE thing in winemaking that you can use more of without worry. So dosing is not of any critical concern. After nearly 30 years of winemaking, and making mostly fruit wines along with very pulpy grapes like Concord and Niagara, it seems that the better pectinases work better.

Stressbaby--Why not try the Lallzyme and critique it for yourself? Replace the pectic enzyme with the Lallzyme of your choice and see what you think. Just remember that most fruits do not have much, if any tannin. Except for elderberry which has lots of tannin. Tannin also acts to help clarify and color binds the wine so you don't get plating out of color inside the bottle. Tannin is under-appreciated by newer winemakers.

 

[Stressbaby]

stickman---Remember that pectic enzyme is the ONE thing in winemaking that you can use more of without worry. So dosing is not of any critical concern. After nearly 30 years of winemaking, and making mostly fruit wines along with very pulpy grapes like Concord and Niagara, it seems that the better pectinases work better.

Stressbaby--Why not try the Lallzyme and critique it for yourself? Replace the pectic enzyme with the Lallzyme of your choice and see what you think. Just remember that most fruits do not have much, if any tannin. Except for elderberry which has lots of tannin. Tannin also acts to help clarify and color binds the wine so you don't get plating out of color inside the bottle. Tannin is under-appreciated by newer winemakers.

I have been! So far I tried it on a Fig wine and an Elderberry/Blackberry blend.

 

[Turock]

Ok. So to go back to your initial question, there is no reason for you not to use the Lallzyme and abandon your old pectic enzyme.

 

[Scooter68]

Ok. So to go back to your initial question, there is no reason for you not to use the Lallzyme and abandon your old pectic enzyme.

I would guess that the answer depends on two things - Difference in performance and Cost differences between the Lallzyme and a persons current product of choice.

 

[Keith5]

What dose of Lallzyme ex and/or exv have you found useful in fruit wines? I’ve only used generic Pectic enzyme. It’s worked but fruit wines seem light and missing mouthfeel and fruitiness.
Also , what about adding an oz of glycerine per gallon to add mouthfeel on top on Lallezyme? Any experience with this?

 

[Johnd]

What dose of Lallzyme ex and/or exv have you found useful in fruit wines? I’ve only used generic Pectic enzyme. It’s worked but fruit wines seem light and missing mouthfeel and fruitiness.
Also , what about adding an oz of glycerine per gallon to add mouthfeel on top on Lallezyme? Any experience with this?

Can't help you with the glycerine additions, but can with the Lallzyme EX-V. Follow the instructions explicitly, this stuff works incredibly well and will break your fruit down beautifully. Use too much and you'll run the risk of having a thick, viscous, sludgy mess that's difficult and time consuming to press. Sound like I've been there / done that?? I have, follow the dosing instructions on the product, more is not better in this case.....

 

[Stressbaby]

Can't help you with the glycerine additions, but can with the Lallzyme EX-V. Follow the instructions explicitly, this stuff works incredibly well and will break your fruit down beautifully. Use too much and you'll run the risk of having a thick, viscous, sludgy mess that's difficult and time consuming to press. Sound like I've been there / done that?? I have, follow the dosing instructions on the product, more is not better in this case.....

Same here, always the labeled dose which IIRC is 0.1g/gallon.