Lalvin 31 MLB

[winemaker81]

Beth (@VinesnBines) and I have been discussing her success with MLF in her F-A hybrids, and I'm planning to inoculate with Lalvin 31 this fall. The planned reds:

1. Pinotage (if available) OR a Zinfandel-based blend
2. Juice buckets fermented with pomace from Batch #1; varietal depends on #1
3. Chambourcin (possibly blended with other F-A hybrids)

I looked at Scott's description of Lalvin 31 and saw this:

Alcohol Tolerance: <14%
pH: >3.1
Total SO2: <45ppm
Temp: >55°F
Frequently used in: aromatic whites, light and medium-bodied reds, fruit wine​

The Chambourcin probably won't be a problem, but the CA reds typically come in north of 14% ABV. Anyone with experience with Lalvin 31 -- how likely is this to be a problem?

I was thinking about co-inoculation, as folks doing MLF have commented favorably on it, and in this situation, if ABV is a problem, it will give the MLB time to work before the ABV gets too high.

Scott recommends ML Red Boost MLB nutrient, which makes sense -- it IS their product. Any suggestions regarding MLB nutrient?

 

[wood1954]

I use vp41 with very good results.
Here’s the specs on it.
Alcohol Tolerance: <16%
pH: >3.1
Total SO2: <60ppm
Temp: >61°F
Frequently used in: all styles of red, white, and rosé wines, restarting stuck fermentations

 

[BarrelMonkey]

Curious as to why you chose this strain since its alcohol tolerance is (I assume) lower than your expected %ABV? Maybe just got some for free from a fellow winemaker? For reds I have had success with CH16 (pH 3.4, temp 62-77, SO2 40ppm, ABV16%) and O-mega (pH 3.1, temp >57, SO2 60ppm, ABV16%; good for red and white but unfortunately not available in small quantities). This year (for Pinot noir) I'm going to try Oenos 2.0 (pH 3.2, temp 62-77, SO2 40ppm, ABV15%). I'm in the MLF after primary camp, so I can't comment on coinoculation - though if I had access to MBR31 I might give it a try for the reason you state. I know others here have had success with coinoculation, but aside from the potential for VA production (especially at higher pH) I would be concerned with getting all my fermentation and pressing equipment contaminated with MLB.

I've also never used MLB nutrients, either professionaly or for my home winemaking, as long as you're in the operating range of pH, temp etc it should take off just fine.

 

[mainshipfred]

I also use MBR 31 and have ever since I started doing MLF. My reds are always within its parameters and I have success with it so I don't see any reason to change. It is one of the more expensive ones though.

 

[cmason1957]

I have been using Enoform Alpha or Beta recently. Mostly due to the high SO2 allowed, below 50 ppm and the low temp allowed, above 57f. It also adds some spiciness to the wine, improved mouth feel along with low diacetyl production. I most often deal with hybrid grapes.

 

[winemaker81]

Curious as to why you chose this strain since its alcohol tolerance is (I assume) lower than your expected %ABV?

It was recommended, and when I decided to try it, I did my usual -- research it. That's when I spotted the ABV problem.

I've been following MLF discussions for years, and I noticed that it seems like many folks have problems with MLF going to completion. The people I know who use Lalvin 31 don't report problems.

I'm reading through the replies and thinking ....

 

[winemaker81]

I've decided against Lalvin 31, as it's not appropriate for 2/3 of my production. MLB is expensive enough and my overall production is < 66 gallons, so buying 1 packet is the most cost effective.

It's clear I need to do more research. If I made one class of grapes it would be easier, but as the "title" I chose for myself (wine dabbler), I have multiple irons in the fire, e.g., CA Vinifera and VA F-A hybrid grapes.

So I'm going to examine all the recommendation so far and make a decision over the weekend.

 

[BarrelMonkey]

So I'm going to examine all the recommendation so far and make a decision over the weekend.

One other factor to bear in mind is that the individual tolerances described (pH, temp, SO2, %ABV) are not completely independent and are only valid if the other conditions are favorable. So eg I would feel comfortable going close to the ABV limit if the other factors are within range, but if I'm pushing the limits of pH, SO2 and temperature as well, I might run into trouble...

 

[winemaker81]

One other factor to bear in mind is that the individual tolerances described (pH, temp, SO2, %ABV) are not completely independent and are only valid if the other conditions are favorable. So eg I would feel comfortable going close to the ABV limit if the other factors are within range, but if I'm pushing the limits of pH, SO2 and temperature as well, I might run into trouble...

Your point makes sense. Given my experiences, I avoid approaching tolerances as much as feasible, given that we are talking about living creatures that don't necessarily match the spec sheet.

 

[mainshipfred]

All the posts in this thread are coming from experienced winemakers. With that being said, I can't see SO2 being an issue since we all know if we will be doing an MLF and probably have taken that into consideration.

Dealing with ABV is a little controversial to me. My formula is starting gravity minus finished gravity time 131 gives me different numbers than the online calculators. It appears the online calculators go from starting to .990 where I typically use .995. An example is at 24 brix the online calculator gives you an ABV of +/- 14.4. Using my formula it is 13.1 +/-. Most of my wines seem to stop at .995. At 26 brix its 14.4 as opposed to 15.9 on the calculator. Keeping in mind it is potential alcohol I believe the calculator is high leaving the wine in the tolerance of Lalvin 31.

Realizing it's a stylistic choice I don't care for high ABV wines and 14% is about as high as I like to go. Plus I have never received any grapes from California above the 24 range. My local VA grapes come in around 20 to 24 brix although the acid is normally higher than that of California.

Depending on you situation temperature could pose a problem. I'm fortunate that I can keep my warehouse at 70° while others may not have this luxury. The thing is though, even at the lowest temperature range it should still work just take a longer time.

 

[winemaker81]

Dealing with ABV is a little controversial to me. My formula is starting gravity minus finished gravity time 131 gives me different numbers than the online calculators.

I disagree -- it's a LOT controversial.

My workbook uses (OG-FG) / 7.36, which produces a higher value. I've been using that formula for decades and haven't changed as I didn't see a need. However, I am reconsidering.

Confusing things is that there are at least 4 formulas I know of that calculate ABV, all all produce differing results. Making it more confusing, some formulas work only for a range of ABV, e.g., so if the ABV is in the 10%-14% range, a formula can be used, but if it's actually 15%, it can't. ARGH!!!

I'm started a research project into this a couple of years ago but got frustrated as I found no solid indication which formula is most correct. I got frustrated enough to abandon it.

I have the same problem as you with projected ABV charts -- I also use 0.995 when guesstimating a red wine's ABV. For Whites I use 0.993.

Regarding online calculators, I tend to distrust them because I don't know which formulas are used. Plus most are written in JavaScript, which exhibits funky rounding problems in some situations.

I like the higher ABV reds, but they hit a LOT harder than a 12% wine. I'd prefer my CA grapes come in under 1.100, but most of them don't. I'm investigating watering back with acidulated water to reduce ABV.

My cellar temperature in the fall is typically 63-67 F, so I should be in an ok range for MLF.

 

[cmason1957]

Dealing with ABV is a little controversial to me. My formula is starting gravity minus finished gravity time 131 gives me different numbers than the online calculators.

I don't see it as controversial at all. All of the calculations are approximations. It depends on so many factors. The only way to really know what your ABV actually is, would be to use an ebollimeter or send it off to a lab. I punch the numbers into an online calculator that gives for it five guesses and take the average.

 

[mainshipfred]

All of the calculations are approximations. It depends on so many factors.

I couldn't agree more Craig. I suppose that is why they call it potential alcohol. The point I was trying to get across is when dealing with the ABV threshold for MLB the higher reading might sway you away from a certain strain.

 

[winemaker81]

I don't see it as controversial at all. All of the calculations are approximations.

How about "open to discussion and disagreement"?

Your method of using the average is as good as any. As you said, none are truly accurate. I 'spose us being consistent to ourselves is the best choice, regardless of what method we choose.

I couldn't agree more Craig. I suppose the is why they call it potential alcohol. The point I was trying to get across is when dealing with the ABV threshold for MLB the higher reading might sway you away from a certain strain.

Emphasis mine. Your previous comment caught my attention and has me questioning the method I've been using to calculate ABV, since the formula I use produces a result about half a percent higher than the one you use.

Adding to my questioning, the other formulas I have investigated produce a value closer to yours than mine. This doesn't mean mine is the one that far off, but it has spurred another investigation.

Plus I'm considering water back if the OG is too high. About 3/4 of my CA grapes over the years have had a OG above 1.100. My 2019 Merlot calc'd at 15.7%, and it WILL kick my tail.

 

[VinesnBines]

Following up on this thread. I used Lalvin 31 on all my reds this year. The first batches were inoculated on September 19 with subsequent batches inoculated on October 5. The last batches were inoculated on November 1. I hadn’t had time to test anything until last week; October 28 to 31. I was pleased that everything had completed MLF (except of course the ones inoculated on November 1). All the wines are tasting nice at this point so I can safely say Lalvin 31, although pricey was worth using for my F/A hybrids.

I’ll note that batch one was inoculated after active fermentation was complete and batch two was coinocoulated. I wish I had been able to test both batches earlier but harvest was a constant rush.

To answer why Lalvin31; it was recommended by Penn State and Cornell for cold climate F/A hybrids with low pH. While the pH this year was generally decent, I had to get my orders in well advance of harvest so I hedged my bets.

 

[winemaker81]

I find it amusing to see the differences between what I planned in mid-August and what actually happened.

What actually happened? I purchased all my grapes from Beth (@VinesnBines) along with 2 buckets of Pinot Noir.

Since I was doing mostly F-A hybrids, I used Lalvin 31, as Beth has had success with it. It calls for hydrating in water for less than 10 minutes, so I added most of the package to a larger amount of water, and divided the water between batches according to the poundage of each batch. This was co-inoculation with the yeast. The first round of grapes was:

300 lbs Chambourcin (fermented in 2 batches with Avante and Bravo, respectively)
300 lbs Chelois (fermented in 2 batches with Avante and Bravo, respectively)
125 lbs Chardonnel (fermented in 2 batches with QA23 and 71B, respectively)

Side note -- the Chambourcin and Chelois batches with different strains taste very different. Avante is supposed to eat 25-30% of the malic acid, and it appears it did. The Chambourcin is definitely less acidic than the 2023, and I suspect that we'd see different results from Avante eating malic vs. the MLB in the Bravo converting the larger amount of malic to lactic.

The Chardonnel batches are also different. Note that I'm simply blending the batches with different strains together.

All 3 wines spent 2 weeks in primary, were pressed, and spent 1 week in bulk. At that point, for space reasons, we bottled the 2023 wines and moved the Chambourcin & Chelois into the barrels.

THIS is where I screwed up. I added K-meta and oak cubes to both barrels before filling, so if the MLF was not complete, I killed it. I'm going to purchase a malic acid chromatography kit, but everyone was out of stock, so I haven't got one yet. Once I do, I'll test all wines to see where they ended. Based upon Beth's results I have hopes they went mostly or totally to completion.

The weekend we did the pressings, I purchased 130 lbs of Vidal from Beth, and co-inoculated it with the remaining Lalvin 31. That Friday I got the juice buckets, which were fermented with the Chambourcin and Chelois pomace, so if all went well the MLF continued due to presence of MLB in the pomace.

Next weekend we bottle the Sangiovese in the barrel my son has, and move the Pinot Noir into that barrel, and will add K-meta.

The MLF either completed or it didn't. Once I get a chromatography kit, I'll know. At this point I cannot change things, so I'm not concerned. However, this will likely affect my process next fall.

 

[wood1954]

I find it amusing to see the differences between what I planned in mid-August and what actually happened.

What actually happened? I purchased all my grapes from Beth (@VinesnBines) along with 2 buckets of Pinot Noir.

Since I was doing mostly F-A hybrids, I used Lalvin 31, as Beth has had success with it. It calls for hydrating in water for less than 10 minutes, so I added most of the package to a larger amount of water, and divided the water between batches according to the poundage of each batch. This was co-inoculation with the yeast. The first round of grapes was:

300 lbs Chambourcin (fermented in 2 batches with Avante and Bravo, respectively)
300 lbs Chelois (fermented in 2 batches with Avante and Bravo, respectively)
125 lbs Chardonnel (fermented in 2 batches with QA23 and 71B, respectively)

Side note -- the Chambourcin and Chelois batches with different strains taste very different. Avante is supposed to eat 25-30% of the malic acid, and it appears it did. The Chambourcin is definitely less acidic than the 2023, and I suspect that we'd see different results from Avante eating malic vs. the MLB in the Bravo converting the larger amount of malic to lactic.

The Chardonnel batches are also different. Note that I'm simply blending the batches with different strains together.

All 3 wines spent 2 weeks in primary, were pressed, and spent 1 week in bulk. At that point, for space reasons, we bottled the 2023 wines and moved the Chambourcin & Chelois into the barrels.

THIS is where I screwed up. I added K-meta and oak cubes to both barrels before filling, so if the MLF was not complete, I killed it. I'm going to purchase a malic acid chromatography kit, but everyone was out of stock, so I haven't got one yet. Once I do, I'll test all wines to see where they ended. Based upon Beth's results I have hopes they went mostly or totally to completion.

The weekend we did the pressings, I purchased 130 lbs of Vidal from Beth, and co-inoculated it with the remaining Lalvin 31. That Friday I got the juice buckets, which were fermented with the Chambourcin and Chelois pomace, so if all went well the MLF continued due to presence of MLB in the pomace.

Next weekend we bottle the Sangiovese in the barrel my son has, and move the Pinot Noir into that barrel, and will add K-meta.

The MLF either completed or it didn't. Once I get a chromatography kit, I'll know. At this point I cannot change things, so I'm not concerned. However, this will likely affect my process next fall.

How do you get the oak cubes out of the barrel?

 

[winemaker81]

How do you get the oak cubes out of the barrel?

We pump wine from the barrels until we see sediment moving. I hold the racking cane off the bottom and lower it during the pumping process.

The remainder in the barrel gets poured into a 2 gallon food grade bucket. I current have 4 liters of CS and CF that looked like pure sludge; it's now in the fridge. The sediment compacted to about 1/2" (1 cm). I'll rack off of that and the wine will get added to a Frankenwine of the odd-n-ends we had left over.

After that we use a pressure washer to clean out the barrel. We turn it over and literally shake out the cubes. This may take a couple of iterations. We rinse the cubes, let them air dry, and save 'em. In the near future we'll be smoking meat and using the cubes for that.