Making a second-run elderberry wine without a first run

[Stressbaby]

The last couple of years I've made some decent elderberry wine. I use this recipe, including boiling the fruit and the cold maceration, with good results. Then I've made a "second-run" elderberry using a variation of Keller's recipe. I leave out the grape concentrate but include the bananas and double the fruit, using the seeds/skins from two batches of first run elderberry.

This rosé turns out to be my wife's favorite wine. It is a really, really nice wine. Now looking at the amount of fruit I have, it turns out that I have many pounds of elderberries left. I would like to make a version of this wine, an elderberry rosé, using fresh/frozen elderberries. I'm just not quite sure what approach to take.

Do I:

• Add back the white grape concentrate Keller uses?
• Boil the fruit, strain it off, then just use the water?
• Simply cut the volume of fruit way back?
• Some combination of the above?

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

 

[Arne]

My guess and it is only a guess is use less fruit. Should give about the same effect as fermenting the fruit first. Arne.

 

[salcoco]

rose from wine grapes is made by reducing the contact time from crushing of the grapes to pressing, this time being in some cases in hours. try a small batch of elderberries, crush and then press immediately and see if the juice is light in color. if so ferment as a white wine. I would also use the white juice concentrate.

 

[Noontime]

It's an interesting question. I think no matter what you do, you're going to get something different than the 2nd run you usually make, since your source material is different. The skins, seeds, (and lees I'm guessing) have a bunch of stuff missing that's been metabolized by the yeast, but also a lot of stuff added from that same process. Kind of like wanting to make a roast beef taste like your favorite beef stew.

Arne and Sal both have good ideas...make a weak wine, or make a real rose'.

Just using less fruit means there will be less volume of fruit, but it will have more stuff for the yeast to interact with. Boiling the fruit and using the water means you'll have less stuff from the fruit, but more volume of it. Like I said...it's an interesting question.

 

[WVMountaineerJack]

Get 5 gallons of fresh cider and drop the a couple of pounds of ripe and then frozen elderberries in it while its working, the apples supply the acid and some sugar and flavor and the elders more tannin, color and flavor. The original recipe you are using, they crush the fruit before cooking it, completely pointless to crush it up before cooking it, a fruit juice steamer works well also. WVMJ

 

[Stressbaby]

Thanks all.

Not sure about making a true rosé I guess, mainly because when I squish a ripe elderberry in my fingers I get juice which is a deep purple color. I imagine pressing would yield the same thing.

I'm thinking of an experiment. I'll post back when it's clear in my mind.

 

[Stressbaby]

This is my thought:
Starting with 6# of frozen berries, simmer in about 1-1.5 gal of water; strain this off, add grape concentrate, sugar, water, acids, etc, to 3 gallons and ferment - batch #1.
Press the berries, and using the pressed juice, add grape concentrate, sugar, water, etc to 3 gallons and ferment - batch #2.
Use the simmered, pressed berries in standard 3 gallon batch - that's batch #3.
Use the pressed berries in second run 3 gallon batch - batch #4.

I recognize that I'll end up with 3 very different wines but perhaps I can blend them and come up with something nice.

Now go ahead and throw those killer balls! [ducks]

 

[Noontime]

This is my thought:
Starting with 6# of frozen berries, simmer in about 1-1.5 gal of water; strain this off, add grape concentrate, sugar, water, acids, etc, to 3 gallons and ferment - batch #1.
Press the berries, and using the pressed juice, add grape concentrate, sugar, water, etc to 3 gallons and ferment - batch #2.
Use the simmered, pressed berries in standard 3 gallon batch - that's batch #3.
Use the pressed berries in second run 3 gallon batch - batch #4.

I recognize that I'll end up with 3 very different wines but perhaps I can blend them and come up with something nice.

Now go ahead and throw those killer balls! [ducks]

Awesome idea. I'm sure they will all be enjoyable, but more importantly you'll be educating yourself about what you like and the effect your processes have. My guess is there will be a significant difference between the cooked and uncooked berries. I really hope you update this thread when you start drinking them, I am genuinely interested.