Making wine without adding yeast?? Opinions please

[Chilled]

My son has been making wine using directions that were passed down from an old time winemaker through 2 generations. This wine is usually taken from the barrel as needed and not bottled. (I know not good) Some Persimmon that was bottled after at 1-1/2 years was slightly fizzy. Sampling the wine at different times indicates it is usually best at about 1 to 1-1/2 years in the barrel. We just checked his elderberry/blackberry and final SG at 3 years is 1.027. Persimmon at 3 years is SG 1.053. Neither wine has been back sweetened. He had not previously been checking the SG of his wines during the process.

The recipe and process for a 50 gallon barrel is roughly as follows.
Persimmon = 70 pounds whole persimmons frozen, then thawed.
Elderberry/blackberry = 20 gallons of raw berries that are then frozen, thawed and mashed, covered with water in two 10 gallon crocks, add 1/2 cup of lemon juice. Stir once per day for 3 days, then let stand for 4 days. Squeeze liquid from berry remains and place liquid in barrel. Dissolve 100 pounds of sugar in water and add to barrel. Fill barrel with water and add airlock. Leave in barrel for a year to a year and a half.
No yeast, chemicals or clearing agent were used.

The final SG would seem to indicate that fermentation was never completed.
If he wanted to bottle this wine at it's peak what process would you recommend if any?

All Comments and Suggestions will be appreciated.

 

[TonyP]

My guess is you had wild yeasts that died off when alcohol levels reached sufficient levels to kill the yeast, but long before fermentation was completed.

I'd say the basic answer is yeast is needed to make wine because it's needed for fermentation. You can make beverages similar to wine (perhaps something similar to cider) with blackberries, but that involves bacteria. Also, wine can be made with wild yeasts you may not even know are there. Using truly wild yeasts will produce an unforeseeable result and incomplete fermentation.

 

[Chilled]

Thanks Tony

 

[mmadmikes1]

Just because you still have sugars does not mean fermentation is not complete. Just means sg is higher than you would like

 

[BernardSmith]

I agree with TonyP and would add that many of these traditional recipes that have been in families for generations may have been used in locales and settings where the most suitable wild yeasts were more likely to be found. I don't think that you can assume that traditional recipes will work in the same way in very different settings. Moreover, I also think that many traditional recipes assumed certain practices would be applied even when never mentioned in the recipe and so for example, the containers used to make the wines may have been used countless times before and so might have been inoculated with the kinds of wild yeasts that would fully ferment the must.

 

[TonyP]

Great comments, Bernard. You're absolutely right. Wild yeasts are inherently local and can't necessarily be duplicated elsewhere, even under identical methods. Beyond that, though, grapes, fruits, and berries from differing locales don't always support the same wild yeasts.

 

[Chilled]

mmadmikes1, Maybe I should have phrased that differently. I guess I meant it had not fermented dry. I'm only familiar with making kit wine. Was curious when we tested my son's wine after 3 years in a wood barrel and SG was that high. He did not know what the OG was.

BernardSmith, Very interesting observation.

Thanks to you both.

 

[Bartman]

I haven't done the math, but with 100 pounds of sugar added, that might help explain the high S.G. now. As the other commenters mentioned, the mysterr yeast involved certainly played a role in what your tasting now. You might consider taking a gallon or so from the barrel and adding a commercial yeast (I would probably use the all-purpose, high ABV EC-1118) with some nutrient now and see if it ferments further (and becomes dry), if you want a dry wine.

My other thought is that oxidation will start to be a problem if you have not topped up the barrel after 3 years. A little k-meta would go a long way to protecting in the barrel and bottle if you decide to bottle within the next month or two. De-gassing after adding metabisulfite and before bottling will help to limit the oxidation risk of stirring it up.

 

[Chilled]

Thanks Bart,

We have now added Kmeta and will degas a small sample to see if it is needed.
May try to restart fermentation in a gallon and see what happens.

Appreciate the different ideas.

 

[Jolly_Roger]

There is wild yeasts everywhere, the reason we use cultivated yeasts is because we want it to overpower any "bad" wild yeast. The reason grapes are the number one wine ingredient is because they (grapes) have a coating of yeast already on them, but it differs from region to region, so by using large amounts of a certain yeast we can fairly reliably predict the outcome of our wines.
I would guess that that amount of sugar will push alcohol levels to the point the yeast can no longer work..... a simple test is to drink a given amount== between 1 and 2 liters and see what it does to you. if you dont get a buzz there is another reason it stopped ha ha ha.

 

[Gowers Choice]

I have uncles and cousins who never add yeast to their wines and they taste just fine. Also, you mentioned using persimmons in your recipe. I don't know what your persimmons look like, but the ones I use are usually covered in a natural yeast by the time they fall off the tree. They are one fruit that I think you could definitely get away with not using a store bought yeast.

 

[saramc]

You mention that all fruit is frozen. Is this fruit washed prior to freezing? If so you may be rinsing away a large proportion of natural yeast.

And barrel was empty when you started, or was there wine already inside and you just added all these fruits, sugar, water? The gravity from adding 100# sugar and filling barrel to 50gal capacity is approximately 1.094--just from added sugar.

 

[jswordy]

If you wish to inoculate a vineyard with yeasts you have found you like in your winemaking, just begin to "mulch" around the base of the vines with the pressed skins from your endeavors. This is how much of the French grapes were inoculated in the various regions, with some vineyards having seen the practice for over 300 years now.

Your son is making wine like my grandpa did. He stored his in six barrels in the basement and only withdrew into the bottles when he needed some. Oak itself apparently has a preservative effect.