I think tannin combines with oxygen, so maybe adding more will allow less so2. Also there is research going on with yeast strains that scavenge oxygen in the must allowing for little to no so2.
Making wine without chemicals.
- Thread starter vinny
- Start date
Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:
True, tannins combine with oxygen, what is called a traditional vintage cider will have high tannin, good red grape is characterized by the tannins, this is a total polyphenols issue though since some members of this family as reversitol (from grapes, raspberries, aronia . . . super fruits) have no flavor but are excellent antioxidants.
was not aware of oxygen scavenger yeast, ,,, note lees scavenge oxygen.
I figured I might as well update as I just racked all the wines. I made 5 wines total. 2 dandelion, and 3 carrot. The carrots all had different methods. Chopped and boiled. Juiced and boiled pulp added to a mesh bag, and juiced with raw pulp added in a mesh bag. One carrot got a full dose of nutrient and energizer, and two were no additives. One dandelion got a shot of energizer, the other no additives. Boiled carrot was certainly the most pleasant in the must, and although I tasted them all at racking I didn't note the method for comparison. I'll save that for when they are farther along.
All fermented out dry. The ones without any additives took significantly longer. Like 2 weeks longer to stop active off gassing, but I never got a final gravity on those, so I can't say specifically how much longer.
They all taste pleasant, but are all going to get more time. One dandelion recipe tasted very strong of orange peel when I first transferred. To the point I thought it was a throw away. Now, it has mellowed and I think more time will improve them all. They are currently 5 months from pitching. There are no notable differences between additives and not other than clarity. I didn't add peptic enzyme to all, and only a 1/4 tsp to some. For the dandelion that was enough, for the carrot it did very little. I was going to add more, but I am going to age another 3 months at least, so I figured I would wait and see what time does as another comparison. I can always dose and clear at a later date if I decide they are ready to bottle before they clear. Absolutely no notable off flavors from one batch to the other due to lacking nutrient. I did add vitamin B and food grade epsom salts (micro nutrients) to one dandelion that was chugging along really slowly at day 6 to give it a higher chance of success.
So really no definitive results other than fermentation can be completed without any additiives. Even a low nutrient must like dandelion. I used EC-1118 in all but the slow dandelion, that was K1-V1116. Other yeasts with higher nutrient requirements would likely be a completely different story and possibly a complete fail.
I ended up dumping the 3 gallons of Dragon's Blood mentioned earlier in the thread. Whether I beat it to death with 02 or not, the Buon Vino tainted it with the filter soap taste. That will never be used on ANY of my wines again. I have a poly spun filter housing ready to set up and All In One wine pump supplies on the way.
All fermented out dry. The ones without any additives took significantly longer. Like 2 weeks longer to stop active off gassing, but I never got a final gravity on those, so I can't say specifically how much longer.
They all taste pleasant, but are all going to get more time. One dandelion recipe tasted very strong of orange peel when I first transferred. To the point I thought it was a throw away. Now, it has mellowed and I think more time will improve them all. They are currently 5 months from pitching. There are no notable differences between additives and not other than clarity. I didn't add peptic enzyme to all, and only a 1/4 tsp to some. For the dandelion that was enough, for the carrot it did very little. I was going to add more, but I am going to age another 3 months at least, so I figured I would wait and see what time does as another comparison. I can always dose and clear at a later date if I decide they are ready to bottle before they clear. Absolutely no notable off flavors from one batch to the other due to lacking nutrient. I did add vitamin B and food grade epsom salts (micro nutrients) to one dandelion that was chugging along really slowly at day 6 to give it a higher chance of success.
So really no definitive results other than fermentation can be completed without any additiives. Even a low nutrient must like dandelion. I used EC-1118 in all but the slow dandelion, that was K1-V1116. Other yeasts with higher nutrient requirements would likely be a completely different story and possibly a complete fail.
I ended up dumping the 3 gallons of Dragon's Blood mentioned earlier in the thread. Whether I beat it to death with 02 or not, the Buon Vino tainted it with the filter soap taste. That will never be used on ANY of my wines again. I have a poly spun filter housing ready to set up and All In One wine pump supplies on the way.
Last edited:
You are getting as bad as BigDaveK!
Thank you
. I take that as a compliment!
Outstanding!
Great update! Saved me some experimenting.
I'm beginning to think root crops (and squash) benefit from simmering for a while.
My next question is if baking makes a difference? Some vegetables are baked to make them table-ready and I'm really curious! Gee, I just happen to have some winter squash. As soon as I have the time.....
![[Upgraded] 9Pcs Tree Root Growing Box with Drain Holes, Half Transparent Plant Rooting Propagation Ball & Metal Core Twist Ties, for Fast Propagation Plants (Size M)](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/514MWQxtWOL._SL500_.jpg)
I'm thinking more like different sides of the same coin.
Now that is an interesting thought. I never even thought of it. The sweetness of a roasted carrot compared to the blandness of boiled, One would think that would have to come through in the final product in some way. First thought is I don't think you would want to aim for browned, but maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe it's a Dave thing...
Back when I was looking for pumpkin wine recipes, I found that some people baked it first. If I try pumpkin/squash wine in the future, that's what I would like to try.
Last edited:
Nope. @vinny is getting as good as @BigDaveK
Both Dave's (look at Vinny's sig, his real name is Dave) are "dabblers". They are experimenters, as in "I can ferment that!". They are great examples of what can be done. They are also great examples that we should all do our own things.
Note that Ratflinger's response was obviously a compliment to both Dave's.
I experiment too! That's why my by-line is "Fruit Wine Alchemist." I chose that because the original alchemists experimented a lot, and failed a lot. But I'm not trying to make gold out of lead.But @BigDaveK and I are the ones making weird wines, huh? I see how it is.
One of my recent experiments is chocolate peppermint wine. The goal is a flavor reminiscent to those chocolate covered mint cookies. I get excited when I come up with an idea and can't find a single recipe online. New territory! We'll see how it turns out.
A few years ago I made a straight peppermint wine. The flavor was very strong, so my son said that it "tastes like an ingredient." It's good on a hot summer day if you really like peppermint.
I just looked at the OP. This is completely off topic. Oh well, that's how we roll here.
I noticed the same thing. My Hubbard squash and Ragosa butternut are all in the 30 lb range, certainly enough for two 1-gallon batches. I'll have to try a side by side ferment, one baked one simmered.
I didn't make zucchini wine this year because I thought they were bland. Baking really transforms zukes. I wonder...
Did you use nibs for the chocolate or something else?I experiment too! That's why my by-line is "Fruit Wine Alchemist." I chose that because the original alchemists experimented a lot, and failed a lot. But I'm not trying to make gold out of lead.
One of my recent experiments is chocolate peppermint wine. The goal is a flavor reminiscent to those chocolate covered mint cookies. I get excited when I come up with an idea and can't find a single recipe online. New territory! We'll see how it turns out.
A few years ago I made a straight peppermint wine. The flavor was very strong, so my son said that it "tastes like an ingredient." It's good on a hot summer day if you really like peppermint.
I just looked at the OP. This is completely off topic. Oh well, that's how we roll here.
I did a quart sized test with Dutch cocoa powder (because that's what's on my shelf). It was more like an infusion since I didn't ferment with it. There was a "flavor" but not chocolate. I may revisit in the future.
I'm really interested in spices. Infusions should work but I'm wondering how fermenting will affect/transform/mutate the flavor. Oh oh....I just had the thought to start a gallon batch of a basic wine, once fermentation is obvious split it into quart-sized primaries and add spices. Dill? Caraway? Oh, the possibilities....
Quart size is awful small for aeration control.
For trying flavor blends out I put them in a pie first. 90 days for a kit style or a year in a carboy for a normal ties up shelf space and glass and air locks . . . . and . . .
Spices, that's another category.. No rules about how many categories are in primary.
I expect fermenting will produce more of a 'blended' flavour. There are definitely some things that come through as very noticeably, orange, for example. Even through fermentation, but I find the specific flavor of the ingredient can certainly be transformed differing from an infusion. With the dandelion I just tasted it was strong orange rind of the hop. I was disappointed, I wanted dandelion wine, not orange. I learned a lesson though. I like mandarines and clementines, I am not a fan of the big bland 'utility?' oranges. If you don't want to eat it, don't add it to your wine! Mandarine would have been much sweeter and softer, and LESS. They are significantly smaller, so lesson learned. However... given time the orange flavor is still present, but not as distinctly 'orange', and not as in your face. I don't know if I could identify it as orange if I didn't taste it months ago. It is mellowing into a more complex, rounded, and unified flavor profile. I am curious if this is an effect of aging after fermentation, or if an infusion will blend and mellow similarly over time.
I am likening fermentation to a curry or hot pot. With the right ingredient ratio's from the beginning and time to 'cook' (stewing vs aging) you get one long and complex flavor profile that changes over the palate. Not one single ingredient is necessarily identifiable. Where as with an infusion the infused flavor is more topical and overlaying the base flavor.
I am going to start playing with some things myself. Once I get myself sorted, I have a lot ready to bottle. I think a couple of peppercorns here and there, a cinnamon stick, oak, bacon?
. Maybe not bacon.... Yet. If it works as an infusion, then I'll add to primary.You know, it gives me an idea, too. I could take a cheaper kit and split it into 3 or 4 1 gallon batches and a topper upper. I'll have the base to top up after rackings and as a comparison to all the different versions.... Hmmmm
Last edited:
I used cocoa powder in the primary and nibs in the secondary. The chocolate mint is still in the early stages of aging, but the tart cherry chocolate is very nice.
Here is a good discussion about using chocolate in wine: Brewing with Chocolate
Here is a good discussion about using chocolate in wine: Brewing with Chocolate
Thomas Edison said, "I haven't failed. I have found 10,000 ways that don't work."I experiment too! That's why my by-line is "Fruit Wine Alchemist." I chose that because the original alchemists experimented a lot, and failed a lot. But I'm not trying to make gold out of lead.
I hope your hit ratio is higher!
I agree about the size. I used vacuum seal lids intended for vegetable fermentation as a test and they worked great. I was mainly interested in getting a general impression of whether I should pursue a flavor or not.
Making a pie is an interesting idea but I definitely don't want to start that caloric minefield.
Similar threads
