Malolactic Bacteria

[DAB]

I'm a home brewer and new to wine making. Reading and talking with others I'm somewhat confused as to when it's appropriate to add malolactic bacteria. Two to three days into fermentation? After primary fermentation? One month after crush? Just not sure and so I'm seeking the advice of more experienced people.

This is going to be my first batch of wine ever. I'm using Chilean grapes (12 lugs) that are due to arrive within the next two weeks. Trying to understand all the association steps and their proper order.

Thanks,
Newbie

 

[Johnd]

I'm a home brewer and new to wine making. Reading and talking with others I'm somewhat confused as to when it's appropriate to add malolactic bacteria. Two to three days into fermentation? After primary fermentation? One month after crush? Just not sure and so I'm seeking the advice of more experienced people.

This is going to be my first batch of wine ever. I'm using Chilean grapes (12 lugs) that are due to arrive within the next two weeks. Trying to understand all the association steps and their proper order.

Thanks,
Newbie

Personally, and I believe that I’m in the minority, I add MLB as soon as alcoholic fermentation starts. Many others wait until it’s nearly complete, they press the grapes, 2-3 days later rack off the gross lees, and add MLB.

Spend some time reading about the process, paying attention to starters and nutrients, as well as bacterial strains of MLB. Loads of help here from experienced winos, ask away, someone will see it pretty quick.

 

[mainshipfred]

I think you will find the is a chicken and egg question. There are benefits and risks to either way and I don't think any are wrong. I feel this is just a preference thing for what has worked well in the past. I normally do multiple batches and wait until they are have all completed AF and start them all at the same time. Watch your S02 and alcohol levels with the bacteria you choose. For what it's worth I have never had any luck with White Labs 675.

 

[DAB]

I purchased "Dry Malolactic Bacteria - Viniflora" from morewine.com for the MLF. You bring up another great question though...How best a beginner like me to test the SO2? Do you have a recommended a kit?

Many thanks,
Newbie

 

[mainshipfred]

Although they are not the most accurate, S02 test strips would be the most economical. If you are using the 16 or 35 they are both high S02, Ph and alcohol tolerant. What ever directions you are using I would recommend not adding S02. My Chilean Malbec grapes came in at 9 ppm S02 and your yeast will add to this. The amount depends on the strain you use.

 

[cmason1957]

I am going to second the don't add anymore SO2 to your Chilean grapes. Several folks have had problems with getting Mlf to start or finish and adding even the slightest amount might be a common thread. I think they probably get some added to retard spoilage before they ever get to you. I don't measure SO2 levels at all, so this may not be true, but you can only measure free SO2 and I believe, MLB react to both free and bound SO2.

 

[Johnd]

@cmason1957 is dead on with this, I’m one of the ones who had Chilean wines struggle, and I added no SO2 at all, inoculated multiple times and no MLF. Big reason I went to co-inoculation, the conditions are much more favorable. Despite what they will tolerate MLB thrive in pH over 3.5, temps 75 +, low alcohol situations, with no SO2.

As any of these factors change, it makes work more stressful, so inoculating a 14% ABV wine with some free SO2, and presumably some bound, can create challenges.

Co-inoculation in a must with 3.5+ pH, no or little total SO2, no alcohol, and fermentation temps increasing fro 75 to 85 is a highly favorable environment for success. MLF is typically complete a few weeks after AF, allowing you to sulfite and protect your wine much sooner as well. Downside is the risk of MLB feeding on sugars instead of malic acid, causing undesirable compounds in your wine. IMHO, maintaining a clean fermentation, with proper nutrients for both the yeast and MLB keeps things in check, and I’ve never had such issues, and all of my wines have successfully completed.

As mentioned earlier, it’s a winemaker decision, pros and cons either way. Read up on both methods, there are articles and studies out there in cyberspace which are interesting and informative, though sometimes a bit technical.

 

[DAB]

@cmason1957 is dead on with this, I’m one of the ones who had Chilean wines struggle, and I added no SO2 at all, inoculated multiple times and no MLF. Big reason I went to co-inoculation, the conditions are much more favorable. Despite what they will tolerate MLB thrive in pH over 3.5, temps 75 +, low alcohol situations, with no SO2.

As any of these factors change, it makes work more stressful, so inoculating a 14% ABV wine with some free SO2, and presumably some bound, can create challenges.

Co-inoculation in a must with 3.5+ pH, no or little total SO2, no alcohol, and fermentation temps increasing fro 75 to 85 is a highly favorable environment for success. MLF is typically complete a few weeks after AF, allowing you to sulfite and protect your wine much sooner as well. Downside is the risk of MLB feeding on sugars instead of malic acid, causing undesirable compounds in your wine. IMHO, maintaining a clean fermentation, with proper nutrients for both the yeast and MLB keeps things in check, and I’ve never had such issues, and all of my wines have successfully completed.

As mentioned earlier, it’s a winemaker decision, pros and cons either way. Read up on both methods, there are articles and studies out there in cyberspace which are interesting and informative, though sometimes a bit technical.

Sorry, please forgive me, I've much to learn. However, I thought that adding SO2 (Sodium Metabisulfite) in the form of Campden tablets was essential to any must before pitching the commercial yeast? No?

 

[Johnd]

Sorry, please forgive me, I've much to learn. However, I thought that adding SO2 (Sodium Metabisulfite) in the form of Campden tablets was essential to any must before pitching the commercial yeast? No?

It’s typically a step, in relatively low doses, for grapes coming out of the field, to stun the native yeasts/bacteria, assuming the winemaker doesn’t intend to ferment with the natural yeasts already present on the grapes. It’s the only dose they’ll get prior to MLF, and they grew the grapes and know exactly what’s been added. Not all wineries add sulfite at crush. Cultured yeasts have sulfite tolerance, by design, and therefore easily take over the job of alcoholic fermentation when introduced into the must.

Your grapes are coming from Chile, and were packed with sulfite soaked pads, and perhaps in containers dosed with SO2 gas. While the free SO2 may be on the lowish side of the scale, there is also bound sulfite in the mix as well. I sort of consider that the initial dose, and don’t add more. Adding more at crush could be the MLF inhibitor you don’t want. If your grapes are in good shape (not moldy, mushy, or dirty), and knowing they were shipped in sulfite, you should consider passing on the crush sulfite, if you plan to MLF. If your grapes are in rough shape, you may have to make a judgement call. At the least, pick out and discard the nasty stuff.

I’ve done fresh grapes as well as frozen must, and have never dosed with sulfite prior to AF. Fresh grapes were not dosed, the frozen must I ordered included instructions not to dose at crushing, just freeze and ship. I can only assume those instructions were followed. Is there a risk, yes, and maybe I’ve just been luckily dodging bullets.

 

[DAB]

It’s typically a step, in relatively low doses, for grapes coming out of the field, to stun the native yeasts/bacteria, assuming the winemaker doesn’t intend to ferment with the natural yeasts already present on the grapes. It’s the only dose they’ll get prior to MLF, and they grew the grapes and know exactly what’s been added. Not all wineries add sulfite at crush. Cultured yeasts have sulfite tolerance, by design, and therefore easily take over the job of alcoholic fermentation when introduced into the must.

Your grapes are coming from Chile, and were packed with sulfite soaked pads, and perhaps in containers dosed with SO2 gas. While the free SO2 may be on the lowish side of the scale, there is also bound sulfite in the mix as well. I sort of consider that the initial dose, and don’t add more. Adding more at crush could be the MLF inhibitor you don’t want. If your grapes are in good shape (not moldy, mushy, or dirty), and knowing they were shipped in sulfite, you should consider passing on the crush sulfite, if you plan to MLF. If your grapes are in rough shape, you may have to make a judgement call. At the least, pick out and discard the nasty stuff.

I’ve done fresh grapes as well as frozen must, and have never dosed with sulfite prior to AF. Fresh grapes were not dosed, the frozen must I ordered included instructions not to dose at crushing, just freeze and ship. I can only assume those instructions were followed. Is there a risk, yes, and maybe I’ve just been luckily dodging bullets.

Thank you very much for the gouge--I truly appreciate both your time and your experience. I will refrain from adding any additional sulfite to said grape when they arrive as that boxed has already been checked. You've been most helpful!

Best,
Newbie

 

[Johnd]

Thank you very much for the gouge--I truly appreciate both your time and your experience. I will refrain from adding any additional sulfite to said grape when they arrive as that boxed has already been checked. You've been most helpful!

Best,
Newbie

You are quite welcome, there are lots of folks here with way more experience, who are always willing to help, just ask!!!

A word of caution, don’t just consider the box checked, sight unseen, you need to evaluate the condition of your fruit when it arrives. Sulfite shouldn’t be unceremoniously eliminated, it’s a calculated move, knowing the pros and cons.

 

[Ajmassa]

Thank you very much for the gouge--I truly appreciate both your time and your experience. I will refrain from adding any additional sulfite to said grape when they arrive as that boxed has already been checked. You've been most helpful!

Best,
Newbie

This ‘so2/ML’ deal isn’t just ‘one size fits all’. Decisions about so2, the amount, when to add, when not to add, when to add ML, etc.. are constantly debated - with contradicting techniques used by experienced and knowledgeable winemakers- and they all have their justified reasoning.
I kinda love this part of it and It makes me enjoy this hobby even more; to be the shotcaller when there’s numerous ways to go about things. Allowing us to find our own styles and individuality.
Personally I had never added so2 pre fermentation to give the mlb a better environment. But I had a trouble ferment where skipping so2 may or may not have been a factor. Definitely humbling and taught me some lessons.
Pretty new to the grape game myself I’ve only ever done co-inoculations- which have become more and more accepted over the last decade it seems (I did lots of research when starting) I’d sympathize reading posts about MLF difficulties. But since all mine took off and finished quick it felt like I was lucky to be in on the ‘co-inoc’ secret. (Knock on wood)
Well I just broke my “no so2” streak yesterday and made the call to add some for various reasons (just ~15ppm). Was my decision for better or for worse. Still very confident since adding ML in low/no alcohol environments I believe to be the difference maker. Still soaking with enzymes now for about 24 hrs with yeast coming later tonight.
Btw I test my so2 with the titrets. 10 tests for <$20. They have served me well. My Chileans read 16ppm freeSo2 at crush. Now 30ish.
The vineflora oenos ML you got seems legit. I always hedge my bet with acti-ml to rehydrate and optiMalo nutrient too. In the future take notice of the strains specific tolerances. The newer ones give ph, free so2, temp, abv. With yeast going tonight I’ve got Enoferm Alpha in the on deck circle.

 

[DAB]

Okay, I chose to introduce the ML bacteria yesterday--five days after crush. While I know what AF looks like, I don't know what MLF looks like. What to look for? Can it take 36 hours (like AF fermentation) to begin? Any pointers?

Thanks,
Newbie

 

[mainshipfred]

You won't be able to determine if the MLF is taking place by sight with a co-innoculation. It is difficult enough post fermentation. In post fermentation you will see tiny bubbles if anything. The only way to really know how it is progressing is by testing.

 

[DAB]

What would you consider to be the most practical test (kit) for home winemaker? Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Newbie

 

[mainshipfred]

This is what I use but some use test strips.

https://morewinemaking.com/products...iUWC1UAaD53pPsgJoFyYx_XNkSR_OFnRoCyToQAvD_BwE

 

[Venatorscribe]

Lactobacillus. Our friend. Was very happy to see this happening in my pear cider. Racked the cider today. The smoothing effect is welcome.

 

[Ignoble Grape]

Okay -
I have a batch of low alcohol apple wine - ~9%. It's in need of something extra. I just racked and added K-meta, oak chips, and bentonite hoping to impart flavor and scrub it a little. It's 3 mos old at this point. Too late to try MLF?

 

[cmason1957]

Okay -
I have a batch of low alcohol apple wine - ~9%. It's in need of something extra. I just racked and added K-meta, oak chips, and bentonite hoping to impart flavor and scrub it a little. It's 3 mos old at this point. Too late to try MLF?

Probably too late, you added K-Meta. That makes it really hard to start mlf. What type of apples did you make it from? A mixture with more tart than sweet makes a better wine. You may try adding some sugar to it, to see if that helps.

 

[sour_grapes]

I'm no expert on apple wine -- but since the predominant acid is malic, I would be worried that MLF would destroy any balance the concoction had!