Malolactic fermentation for elderberry wine?

[BarrelMonkey]

Every once and a while I will see a mention that the TA decreases with time. There are a few
variables to this as bitartrate crystals (tartaric acid) coming out of solution, or alcohols become esterified with any available acids (stop being acidic). Mostly this is looked at as beneficial giving a “smooth” flavor/ less risk of gunk in the last glass poured, ,,, and folks toss the tartaric.

Well, ,,, if you have bitartrate come out you can’t expect it to go back in solution unless you heat the wine (ex boil in a kettle) and then there is a risk that it falls out again with time. ,,,, If you feel you need the extra acid for mouth feel, you will be better off adding phosphoric or citric or lactic or malic acids since they will not crystallize out.

To clarify, it was the wood balls that I added back to the wine, not the (presumably) tartrate crystals!

 

[winemaker81]

i feel blessed that all yawl don't ban me,

Keep trying, I have confidence you'll succeed!!

 

[user 32114]

Keep trying, I have confidence you'll succeed!!

this has been he best part of my day
Dawg

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I tried to do ML on my 2022 elderberry and although it's only been ~ 3 weeks, the fizzing seems to have died down so I ran a chromatogram:



T,C,M,L: Tartaric, citric, malic and lactic acids
PRE: Sample taken at start of MLF and frozen
5G, 1G: 5 gal, 1 gal containers
21: 2021 elderberry for reference

The first thing that stands out is the lack of tartaric acid in the pre-ML sample. My only explanation for this is that maybe there was some precipitation during freezing and it didn't resuspend when I thawed out the sample?

The malic/citric bands overlap a lot. There seems to be more citric than malic, which is consistent with what I've read about European elderberry cultivars (I estimate my juice was about 3/4 European, 1/4 American cultivars). There may be a little conversion of M to L, but my conclusion is that it's not complete, I think it just got a bit too cold too soon. Does anyone have experience with ML re-starting when the weather warms up? I am a bit reluctant to leave the wine without sulfites (it's had none added to date), but maybe if I add, say 30ppm now it will keep it in check over the winter.

 

[Piccyman]

as i read, i can see yawl are are educated vinters , elderberry, is a simple wine, except for taste, i don't comment on elderberry anymore, i'm sure most are tired of me repeating myself, the key to a good to great elderberry wine is elderberry is a very long aging wine, it really makes a fair wine at 5 to 6 years,,, at 8 years it is a very good wine, at 10 years it is a very fine wine, now to cut it down time wise,,, you ferment 1/2 elderberry,, and 1/2 blackberry ,, all mixed from day one, then you get a very good wine at 3 years , that is fermented together from start to finish, it reduces the bite, and brings out a boldness,
just my 2 cents
Dawg

I do a 5 to 1 ratio of blackberry and elderberries, it’s really good after 2 years

 

[BarrelMonkey]

I ran another ML chromatogram on my 2022 elderberry; it's now 10-11 weeks after pitching ML bugs (O-mega strain). Much of the time since my last test (in mid November) it has been quite cool, so not ideal conditions for microbial growth.

T,L,C,M: tartaric, lactic, citric, malic acids. 5g, 1g: 5 gal and 1 gal containers; 21: 2021 elderberry.



There may still be a slight malic acid spot, but I think I'm going to call it and add SO2. This strain of ML bacteria is noted for its very late degradation of citric acid (some of which goes all the way to diacetyl), and I don't want to promote that, particularly given the huge amount of citric acid present.

I find it hard to judge wines this early (and elderberry seems to be particularly famous for late maturity!) However it seems fruity and approachable; cherry/blackberry flavors. It does have a bit of a 'cough syrup' note, which I'm hoping will change with time. There was also a slight 'spritz' on the palate, so maybe ML bugs are still busy despite the cold temperature.

@Huba Huba, tagging you since from a previous thread you were interested to know how things worked out.