MLF and Juice Buckets

[Mario Dinis]

Sometimes MLF shows outward signs, sometimes none at all. Merlot is noted for difficulty with MLF, some go fine, sometimes it just refuses. The only real way to be sure is to run Malic Acid tests, which can be accomplished with paper chromotography or with Malic Test Strips, they both work well, the strips are fast and easy, but a little on the pricey side compare to PC. MLF can take weeks to months to complete, so don't be too anxious, keep your carboys topped up properly and stay off the sulfite until it is complete.

If you do end up with unsuccessful MLF and end up having to sulfite and bottle, the little bit of nutrients you have in there shouldn't adversely affect your wines taste. Also, you might consider adding lysozyme to the wine before bottling to prevent MLF from kicking off in the bottle later.

Thank you for your advice JohnD. I haven't added sulfites. This is my first time at mlf so I'm a bit nervous because it's also the first time that I haven't added sulfites.

 

[Diane Rudnick]

I will be very surprised if your Merlot MLB works, two reasons 1) Wyeast 4007 (seldom hear folks having good luck with this) 2) Merlot can often be a Pita for Malolactic.

Our Pinot Noir from frozen must is going through MLF now with Wyeast 4007 MLB. We did not record our starting number of Malic Acid but we tested using Vinmetrica SC-55 and we’re at 5.8 Malic acid concentration rated in kilo pascals per liter )(*&*(&^%^&%&^%$^%$ I hate chemistry! Anyway we believe it’s working .. slowly. News at 11:00 !

 

[Johnd]

Thank you for your advice JohnD. I haven't added sulfites. This is my first time at mlf so I'm a bit nervous because it's also the first time that I haven't added sulfites.

Just make sure your wine is topped up properly, it's OK to worry about it, I was a nervous wreck for my first MLF. I did sequential innoculation on Chilean grapes and left them sulfite free for 4 months, never did get MLF to complete. That's when I switched to coinoculation, much shorter time period, have never had one fail since then.

What Craig said about the Wyeast MLB seems to be a consistent result, a lot of difficulty getting that product to complete MLF, plus it's in Merlot, which is notoriously stubborn........

 

[Mario Dinis]

Just make sure your wine is topped up properly, it's OK to worry about it, I was a nervous wreck for my first MLF. I did sequential innoculation on Chilean grapes and left them sulfite free for 4 months, never did get MLF to complete. That's when I switched to coinoculation, much shorter time period, have never had one fail since then.

What Craig said about the Wyeast MLB seems to be a consistent result, a lot of difficulty getting that product to complete MLF, plus it's in Merlot, which is notoriously stubborn........

I see. Coinoculation, am I correct to say that that it's done at the same time as the primary fermentation? and if yes, does one pitch the bacteria, nutrient and yeast at the same time?

 

[CDrew]

I see. Coinoculation, am I correct to say that that it's done at the same time as the primary fermentation? and if yes, does one pitch the bacteria, nutrient and yeast at the same time?

The Lallemand paper suggests that all ways are acceptable. With the yeast, 24-48 hours after the yeast and basically any time you want. Based on advice here, I pitch the MLF after the first cap forms. So that's usually 12-24 hours after the yeast is pitched. That gives the yeast a solid chance to get established, and the must tends to warm a bit which aids the bacteria. I picked my Syrah on September 15 and MLF is already complete. I'm going to let it go 1 more week and then sulfite.

 

[Mario Dinis]

The Lallemand paper suggests that all ways are acceptable. With the yeast, 24-48 hours after the yeast and basically any time you want. Based on advice here, I pitch the MLF after the first cap forms. So that's usually 12-24 hours after the yeast is pitched. That gives the yeast a solid chance to get established, and the must tends to warm a bit which aids the bacteria. I picked my Syrah on September 15 and MLF is already complete. I'm going to let it go 1 more week and then sulfite.

That's great, thanks for the info. Next year I will try MLF that way.

 

[Johnd]

I see. Coinoculation, am I correct to say that that it's done at the same time as the primary fermentation? and if yes, does one pitch the bacteria, nutrient and yeast at the same time?

Yes, the MLB and nutrients are added to the must within 24 hours of adding the yeast. We understand that the environmental factors that affect the performance of the MLB are:
1. Available nutrients
2. Temperature
3. Sulfite levels
4. pH levels
5. Alcohol

With coinoculation, assuming that you've got your pH in range and add nutrients, you start the MLB off in an environment that is virtually free of sulfite and alcohol. As the alcohol levels increase, the MLB adapts slowly. Even with a sulfite producing yeast like BM 4x4, the MLB acclimates to that as well, plus, the increasing temperatures from fermentation are favorable to MLB. All of these factors allow the MLB to become well established and acclimated to the wine environment in which it can complete its work. MLF is normally finished very soon after AF and you can sulfite / protect your wine much sooner. Problems can occur if you don't properly feed both your MLB and yeast, as they can compete for food and produce some unwanted compounds. Feeding is important!!

Not a dig at sequential inoculation at all, but it can be more difficult for MLB to get established and functioning in an environment where the alcohol is 14%+, small amounts of sulfite have been produced or added, and temps are cooling down to the ambient room temps. Both methods are fine.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Yes, the MLB and nutrients are added to the must within 24 hours of adding the yeast. We understand that the environmental factors that affect the performance of the MLB are:
1. Available nutrients
2. Temperature
3. Sulfite levels
4. pH levels
5. Alcohol

With coinoculation, assuming that you've got your pH in range and add nutrients, you start the MLB off in an environment that is virtually free of sulfite and alcohol. As the alcohol levels increase, the MLB adapts slowly. Even with a sulfite producing yeast like BM 4x4, the MLB acclimates to that as well, plus, the increasing temperatures from fermentation are favorable to MLB. All of these factors allow the MLB to become well established and acclimated to the wine environment in which it can complete its work. MLF is normally finished very soon after AF and you can sulfite / protect your wine much sooner. Problems can occur if you don't properly feed both your MLB and yeast, as they can compete for food and produce some unwanted compounds. Feeding is important!!

Not a dig at sequential inoculation at all, but it can be more difficult for MLB to get established and functioning in an environment where the alcohol is 14%+, small amounts of sulfite have been produced or added, and temps are cooling down to the ambient room temps. Both methods are fine.

I use juice buckets, the sulfites already should be at the right range.

 

[Johnd]

I use juice buckets, the sulfites already should be at the right range.

I've never done a juice bucket, so I don't know what sulfite levels are added to them, if any.....you should ask the supplier what their practices are.

 

[Mario Dinis]

I will be very surprised if your Merlot MLB works, two reasons 1) Wyeast 4007 (seldom hear folks having good luck with this) 2) Merlot can often be a Pita for Malolactic.

Hi, after almost three weeks since having added the Wyeast 4007 and Opti Malo nutrient to my merlot and showing no signs whatsoever of any activity (someone here said that one might be able to spot tiny bubbles during MLF), I have spotted today a few tiny bubbles coming up. I hope that's a good sign that my merlot is undergoing MLF. My cab sav is still showing tiny bubbles, but a lot slower. My petite sirah shows no activity now after a lot of activity in the beginning. Cab Sav and petite sirah were inoculated with CH 16. I gave the carboys a stir after three days now once in awhile a gentle shake because I don't want any air contact. Based on this I have two questions, one, should I continue to shake the carboys once in awhile and two, are the tiny bubbles any indication of possible MLF going on? I do have a chromotography kit to test after a month whish will be in the end ofthe month.

 

[Johnd]

Hi, after almost three weeks since having added the Wyeast 4007 and Opti Malo nutrient to my merlot and showing no signs whatsoever of any activity (someone here said that one might be able to spot tiny bubbles during MLF), I have spotted today a few tiny bubbles coming up. I hope that's a good sign that my merlot is undergoing MLF. My cab sav is still showing tiny bubbles, but a lot slower. My petite sirah shows no activity now after a lot of activity in the beginning. Cab Sav and petite sirah were inoculated with CH 16. I gave the carboys a stir after three days now once in awhile a gentle shake because I don't want any air contact. Based on this I have two questions, one, should I continue to shake the carboys once in awhile and two, are the tiny bubbles any indication of possible MLF going on? I do have a chromotography kit to test after a month whish will be in the end ofthe month.

Nothing to do but stay the course, maintain low headspace, do a little stirring if you can, and wait. MLF frequently shows no signs, so don't count it out yet. Your chromotography will tell the tale when it's time....

 

[Mario Dinis]

Nothing to do but stay the course, maintain low headspace, do a little stirring if you can, and wait. MLF frequently shows no signs, so don't count it out yet. Your chromotography will tell the tale when it's time....

I have minimum air space. I can try another stir. Surprised at the merlot. Thought it was dormant or "done" for MLF and now all of a sudden there's these tiny bubbles.

 

[jsbeckton]

For what it’s worth I have 2 wines going that were co-inoculated with VP41 about 4 weeks ago. One carboy has been showing the often cited “tiny bubbles” and the other pretty much nothing...

Ran test yesterday and sure enough the one with no signs of life this whole time is further along!

 

[Mario Dinis]

T

For what it’s worth I have 2 wines going that were co-inoculated with VP41 about 4 weeks ago. One carboy has been showing the often cited “tiny bubbles” and the other pretty much nothing...

Ran test yesterday and sure enough the one with no signs of life this whole time is further along!

wo more weeks and I'll be checking mine to make sure.

 

[Bill McNab]

For 25 years I have sequentialy inoculated with mixed results using CH16
This year with my P.S. and Barbera I used VP41 and coinoculated for the first time.
With proper nutrients and PH adjusted to 3.3 I am pleased with my results.
P.S. is complete and my Barbera is very close to complete, using chromotography.
From yeast and VP41 1 day later ,to final MLF 23 days.
I could not be happier.
Coinoculation every year from now on.
Bill.

 

[montanarick]

Co-Inoculated all my reds with VP41 - yeast Lallemand 71B. In two weeks MLF essentially done but letting it sit for another week just to make sure. Next step will be cold stabilization to get rid of the Ice Diamonds and knock TA down even further

 

[Mario Dinis]

Co-Inoculated all my reds with VP41 - yeast Lallemand 71B. In two weeks MLF essentially done but letting it sit for another week just to make sure. Next step will be cold stabilization to get rid of the Ice Diamonds and knock TA down even further

Ice Diamonds? do you mind to explain what are those.

 

[Ajmassa]

Ice Diamonds? do you mind to explain what are those.

At colder temps for an extended time period acid will drop out of the wine. Cold stabilization. TA can drop a couple ticks. And it drops out in the form tartrates. “Crystals”. They shimmer all pretty in the light.
Done in the carboy they don’t end up in the bottle. But only end up in the bottle if temps drop. Not that they are necessarily bad to have tho.

 

[Mario Dinis]

At colder temps for an extended time period acid will drop out of the wine. Cold stabilization. TA can drop a couple ticks. And it drops out in the form tartrates. “Crystals”. They shimmer all pretty in the light.
Done in the carboy they don’t end up in the bottle. But only end up in the bottle if temps drop. Not that they are necessarily bad to have tho.

Thank you for the explanation. I do have a few bottles of my 2016 Cabernet Sauvignon/Merlot blend with in fact those crystals. I just opened one last night and it was good.

 

[Mario Dinis]

Hello everyone, let me ask for a sugestion here. Assuming that MLF is successful, what would be the best next step after adding some Kmeta to the wine, degassing and fining/clearing and later on adding oak or adding the oak now and then later on degassing and clearing? the reasoning behind my question is the amount of rackings and air exposure. I'm more inclined to add the oak now since later on I'll have to remove the chips from the carboys when racking.