MLF and when to inoculate

[Linetec]

Morning All!

I've been doing some research and reading some posts and threads regarding MLF and when to inoculate. There is alot of information out on the world wide web so I'm turning to you guys to pick your brains and see what you guys do when it comes to MLF and when you inoculate.

I'm currently making some wine from fresh juice pails. I called over to the supplier where I bought the pails from and they advised me that no adjustments were made to the juice. Currently, I have the wine in their carboys, alcohol fermentation is complete, there is a nice layer of Lee's at the bottom of each carboy. The other night I racked off one of the carboys, cleaned it, sanitized it and transferred the wine back to it. Added 1/4 tsp of K-Meta and Degassed. My plan was to do the same with the remaining carboys but I started reading about MLF and the beneift of it.

My question to everyone is, did I miss the window to inoculate? I've read that some inoculate soon as alcohol fermentation is done. It's been almost 3 weeks since I pitched the yeast.

Looking forward to your responses!!

Thanks!

 

[cmason1957]

There's two major schools of thought as to when to inocculate, school 1 soon after alcohol fermentation begins or at least before it finishes and then school 2 is after it finishes. Probably most folks here lean to the school 1 idea, I personally am a school 2. I lean to school 2, since I use my fermentation buckets for things I would not want to have MLF happening, so I finish AF, press, into carboys to let settle for 1-3 days and remove the gross lees. Then add my MLB. Either is probably fine, just go by what you prefer. Waiting 3 weeks probably isn't to long, however, the adding of KMeta prior to inoculation with MLB may be a problem. The bacteria used for MLF are very susceptible to the amount of SO2 which has been added, the manufacturers give a range of as low as 12 ppm causes problems to some allow there to be up to 50 ppm of SO2 (combination of free and bound SO2, contributes to that number). So, in the carboy you have already added KMeta you may have issues getting it to start.

If you choose not to even do MLF, which is a valid choice also, you may want to consider adding lysozome to inhibit it from happening by itself. I think if you hae never had malolactic bacteria in your winemaking area, the odds of it happening spontaneously are very low, but it is possible. My first few attempts with juice buckets and from grapes, I did not induce malolactic fermentation. Those wines might have been a bit sharper than ones where I have now introduced the bacteria, but might not be.

Other factors which contribute to MLF not happening are ABV above 14-15%, PH being below 3.2 or being excessively high.

 

[mainshipfred]

I'm a school 2 person as well for no reason except it's how I started and it works for me. You obviously are too late for school 1. Craig brought up some very good points, most importantly don't add K-meta to your second batch. Also don't use a liquid MLB, they are the ones that require very low SO2. Use VP 41 or one of the CHs that do tolerate a higher SO2. The 3 weeks is not a problem either, I wait until all my wines are pressed and racked off the gross lees before I introduce the MLB and it's always around three weeks from the first batch. You may also want to consider a way of testing the progress.

 

[lojzo2000]

hi, I let the wine ferment on the skins for 8 days

I pressed it now

pour into a 100l container

I read 993 on the hydrometer today

should I drain the wine from the sludge? still "pops, rustles, boils."

or can i just add MLF to the thick sludge?

 

[Ajmassa]

hi, I let the wine ferment on the skins for 8 days

I pressed it now

pour into a 100l container

I read 993 on the hydrometer today

should I drain the wine from the sludge? still "pops, rustles, boils."

or can i just add MLF to the thick sludge?

Ditch the sludge. And add the malo once you racked off of it.

Usually people will give it a few days to settle out then rack. A week even. 2 wks pushing it if it’s really sloppy bc it can make the wine smell funky they say.

You’ll still end up with some light healthier sediment in there which you can stir up 1-2x/wk during mlf if you wanted but not necessary. They sell malo specific nutrient and activator too. Temps above room temp also helps.

 

[lojzo2000]

Thank you for the answer
I will remove the thick sludge tomorrow

I have an aquarium heater, the temperature is always set to 19.5 C

I have viniflora oenos bacteria
Ph 3.3
but my alcohol is high 14%

 

[Ajmassa]

Thank you for the answer
I will remove the thick sludge tomorrow

I have an aquarium heater, the temperature is always set to 19.5 C

I have viniflora oenos bacteria
Ph 3.3
but my alcohol is high 14%

Your ph and abv are still under the thresholds for that malo so you should still be good

https://www.gusmerenterprises.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Chr-Hansen-PI_Viniflora_Oenos2_0_SM.pdf
edit**. Nevermind. that is for oenos2.0. 2nd image is the Regular oenos viniflora. It says 14% and 3.3 so you are right at the edge. Tho I bet they list it tight to be safe and still likely to have a successful MLF If right there. some
malo nutrient wouldn’t hurt too. That can be added at any point.

 

[lojzo2000]

I have the nutrients from last year open, can I add them, is it a problem if they have been open for a year? I failed MLF last year

 

[Ajmassa]

I have the nutrients from last year open, can I add them, is it a problem if they have been open for a year? I failed MLF last year

As long as it’s not all clumpy and you’re able to mix up in water then yea. (And even if it is clumpy or expired I really don’t think it’s bad. Just a pain to mix. I’ve still used it like that. clumpy nutrient better than no nutrient IMO

I’ve never had a MLF not finish. But also “cheat” and add it during fermentation a day or 2 after yeast. the low abv enviroment is much easier for the malo to work and work fast too.

The pros mostly all still prefer separate alcohol ferment then malo. But as a simple hobbyist I’ll take any advantage I can get.

 

[hawkwing]

I just added nutrient and CH16 to mine today after racking off the lees. The CH16 was clumpy. First time doing it so not sure if that’s normal?

 

[Ajmassa]

I just added nutrient and CH16 to mine today after racking off the lees. The CH16 was clumpy. First time doing it so not sure if that’s normal?

Oh my bad. I meant clumpy in the bag. Sometimes when it’s old it gets hard and Rocky. And yea a lot of these nutrients are not easy to
mix. It sticks to itself, clumps up. Just doesn’t wanna dissolve sometimes Yep that’s par for the course. Totally Normal

what kind of wine are you making?

 

[hawkwing]

Oh my bad. I meant clumpy in the bag. Sometimes when it’s old it gets hard and Rocky. And yea a lot of these nutrients are not easy to
mix. It sticks to itself, clumps up. Just doesn’t wanna dissolve sometimes Yep that’s par for the course. Totally Normal

what kind of wine are you making?

I’m assuming the CH16 was normal. It came with a cold pack it the mail and had to sit in the mailbox for a few days. I put it in the freezer when I got home. I divided it using a scale into many carboys.

I made Cabernet Sauvignon, Zinfandel, Merlot, and Alicante. I didn’t add MLF bacteria to the Muscat. But I only had half a case of Muscat and one of Alicante. They were extras to fill the pallet that I picked up. The guy ate part of the case of muscat.

I took a jar of the wine and boiled it. Then inoculated with MLF. I’m going to try and freeze it with glycerin like I do with beer yeast. See if it will culture.

 

[lojzo2000]

I read that when I add MLF during residual sugar on the 2nd day of alcoholic fermentation, there is a high amount of sugar, MLF will start to break down the sugar into?

the bacteria use the sugar and produce unwanted diacetyl and acetic acid??

 

[Ajmassa]

I read that when I add MLF during residual sugar on the 2nd day of alcoholic fermentation, there is a high amount of sugar, MLF will start to break down the sugar into?

the bacteria use the sugar and produce unwanted diacetyl and acetic acid??

Yes That’s what the old timers feared when the idea to co-inoculate came up. But in the last 10-15 yrs it’s basically been proven wrong. I mean, yeah theoretically this COULD be the case. But what they did not realize at the time was just how much a low abv enviroment would benefit the malo. It goes too quick for anything negative to develop. just properly feed both the yeast and the malo and often MLF is damn near complete by the end of fermentation.

The old guys will say- “but we prefer a nice steady long mlf to properly allow mlf development”. And that might be true. Might not. *Mostly all the studies found little/no difference. But to be quicker, more resilient w/ better odds of being a successful mlf its a great option for us hobbyists. Ive never NOT done coinocculation actually.

Tons of studies and research has been done on this “sequential vs coinocculation” topic and when I first did it I dove into all of it. Lots of discussion on this forum about it too. later on I’ll link some of that info. If you’re a winemaking nerd like me then you’ll find it very interesting.

 

[Ajmassa]

. But I only had half a case of Muscat and one of Alicante. They were extras to fill the pallet that I picked up. The guy ate part of the case of muscat.

Wait a minute— your saying the guy at your distributor was snacking on a lug of muscat while he worked, and decided to top off your order with his half eaten lug of grapes?!

 

[hawkwing]

Wait a minute— your saying the guy at your distributor was snacking on a lug of muscat while he worked, and decided to top off your order with his half eaten lug of grapes?!

No the guy who owned the store had to fill up a pallet. She ate some of the muscat but sold me more than half a case at half price. Just so I could try it and see.

 

[lojzo2000]

Today I added nutrition from last year

New oenos bacteria I let them acclimatize for 4 hours at a temperature of 20 C, then I put 1/2 of them into 100 l

of wine Lab today
Ph 3.38
Acid 2.32
Lactic acid 0.0
Alcohol 12.02%
I set the temperature to 20C
In 14 days I go to the lab for an acid test

Next year I will try to add oneos for day 3 Alcoholic fermentation

I'm keeping a diary, I'll let you know

 

[lojzo2000]

from 14.10 to 2.11
laboratory results
malic acid 0.01
Lactic acid 1.7

it looks like it's over
then sulfurized to 50mg/l

Acid 2.32 to
Lactic acid 1.7
where did the 0.62 malic acid go?



added nutrients (year open but sealed)
viniflora oenos