MLF - coinocculation versus post-AF innoculation

[heatherd]

This one was as detailed as you could ever need.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1352216/#!po=33.0000


http://lallemandwine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/WE4-China.pdf

I agree, the Lallemand document is fab! I co-inoculated at first because I was equal parts impatient and lazy. It's nice to know that it's not detrimental.

 

[NorCal]

I mlf after AF, I suppose only because that was the way I was taught and it has never failed.

 

[cmason1957]

I am in the add the Mlf after fermentation completed camp also. Never fails. Oh and always use a good ml bacteria. If I were doing a Merlot, I would probably do coinoculation. Merlot is sometimes hard to get going.

 

[Ajmassa]

Those articles (and there's many more. Just google search "co-inoculation vs sequential inoculation MLF") were never intended to be anti-sequential.
I just remembered reading some, not tons, and knew there were findings that said there was no harm or ill effects to your wine from co-inoculation. I didn't realize how "pro co-inoculation" the articles actually were until reading again. This time with a more comprehensive understanding of what I was reading.
But my original opinion has the same reasoning as you guys. It worked well for me so I'll continue to do it. And that nothing bad can happen by co-inoculation.

 

[Stressbaby]

I wouldn't say "nothing bad can happen."

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31593&page=2

bzac knows his stuff as well as or better than anyone on this forum. Now a pro.

 

[Applegrower]

New here.

Is anyone making wine in a volume that requires an MLF culture starter? I have 100 gallons of Norton working and need help coming up with a recipe to increase a volume of VP41.

Thanks!

 

[Redbird1]

Although this is from the Wyeast site, I imagine the same principles apply. Malolactic Starter Culture.

Edit: Forgot to use reply so I'm tagging @Applegrower

 

[Applegrower]

Yup, found that in the course of doing a search. Wyeast calls for a liquid starter wine VP41 is dry. I don't know how to do a wet to dry conversion.

 

[Redbird1]

If it were my plan, I'd figure out the cell count of the liquid vs. the dry and then rehydrate and build up the VP41 as necessary to reach a similar cell count. In my mind, that would put you at a similar starting point. After that, follow the directions from Wyeast.

Edit: Here is a link to a great brewing resource on yeast. I think you could use this to get you going.

I forgot to hit reply again @Applegrower

 

[cgallamo]

If forced to make a decision, I'd throw in with the co-inoculation camp. But I am still on the fence. I have had the battle with H2S, but I have not noticed that mlf timing has had any impact. I do feel more comfortable when I can get the wine protected with sulfite sooner.

Has anyone tried waiting on this decision until later in AF? Then you would know if you were already having issues with H2S you could wait and fix that first, if it was running smoothly you could inoculate?

 

[Applegrower]

In reading and asking others with more experience about co-ferment, my take away is that the chance for problems exceeding my skill set and available tools is too great.

Just finished pressing 47 gallons into secondary. Will let it set until late tomorrow then rack off the gross lees, will inoculate Saturday with VP41 as per package directions. Have probably 28 gallons more going into secondary tomorrow. Had hoped to save $35 by making a starter with one culture but that will have to wait until next year.

 

[Mac60]

I have 60 gallons of Old Vine Zin currently in primary fermentation, should be ready to press in a day or two, wasn't planning on MLF but im thinking it might be a good idea.
What MLF yeast do you recommend & wheres a good place to buy it. I'm in NJ

 

[4score]

I have 60 gallons of Old Vine Zin currently in primary fermentation, should be ready to press in a day or two, wasn't planning on MLF but im thinking it might be a good idea.
What MLF yeast do you recommend & wheres a good place to buy it. I'm in NJ

Check out LodiWineLabs.com

They usually have decent prices. This season, I bought most of our supplies from them instead of MoreWine.

 

[Mac60]

Thanks 4score, What type do you recommend for Zins and Cabs

 

[heatherd]

In reading and asking others with more experience about co-ferment, my take away is that the chance for problems exceeding my skill set and available tools is too great.

Just finished pressing 47 gallons into secondary. Will let it set until late tomorrow then rack off the gross lees, will inoculate Saturday with VP41 as per package directions. Have probably 28 gallons more going into secondary tomorrow. Had hoped to save $35 by making a starter with one culture but that will have to wait until next year.

@Applegrower, there's not a right or wrong answer about co-ferment versus sequential. When I started making wine, co-ferment used to be viewed as a bad or unproven thing, and that may not be the case. We're seeing studies that seem to make the choices more equal. For what it's worth, the process is mostly the same; if you can do one you can do the other. Whatever works for you is the best way to go. VP41 is really reliable, so you should be fine, and you can post here if you have troubles and we'll collectively help you.

I will say, having been at this a few years: Lots of folks on the forum make MLF sound scary and stressful and labor-intensive. I don't do half of the stuff (adjusting pH up front to half the total requirement, stirring, racking, step-feeding nutrients, chromatography, making a starter) that the posts say are important. My batches are great anyway, I have won some awards and I view this as a fun hobby, not a job. Could they be more optimized by stirring 7,000 times a day? Maybe, but that's not realistic for me. So, that's the plain, honest truth. I do MLF with VP41 until my wine tastes soft (lactic) rather than tart (malic), then stabilize with kmeta, simple as that. This isn't life or death!

 

[Ajmassa]

Great post @heatherd. Love the perspective and was well said.

 

[Smok1]

I want to get in on this thread because im about to do my first mlf. So from what ive read i can either:
Co-inoculate: pitch mlf bacteria 24 hours after pitching yeast. Press at 1.020sg as planned, rack into carboys, and let sit on gross lees until mlf is complete? Even if it takes 2 months on the lees? If i plan on using fermaid k for my yeast throughout the alchohal fermentation do i still add my mlf nutrients when pitching the mlf?

Post inoculate: press as planned, what for alchohal fermentation to complete, rerack off gross lees, adjust ph/ta, pitch mlf nutrients and mlf bacteria.

 

[Ajmassa]

There are no rules! Press whenever you want. And inoculate whenever. I read successful MLF pitched same
time with yeast, 24 hrs (which is what I've been doin) 2/3 through AF, and obviously after. But definitely rack again in 1-3 days or whatever to get off the gross lees. You want the light lees. But Not the massive amount of gunk you get from grapes a few days after pressing. You'll be stirring the light lees a couple times a week throughout.
The yeast nutes and malo nutes are different, so you still add regardless of when you inoculate- if you choose to use em. Just keep up on those notes!

 

[ceeaton]

That's the conventional wisdom...

So you innoculate into primary at 1.000 before you press? Do you rack off of gross lees?

I press, let the the wine settle for a few days, rack then inoculate. Never have had an issue, except when I did a batch and wasn't stirring it once a week or so (once I started stirring more frequently, it finished in two weeks if I remember correctly).

 

[cmason1957]

I want to get in on this thread because im about to do my first mlf. So from what ive read i can either:
Co-inoculate: pitch mlf bacteria 24 hours after pitching yeast. Press at 1.020sg as planned, rack into carboys, and let sit on gross lees until mlf is complete? Even if it takes 2 months on the lees? If i plan on using fermaid k for my yeast throughout the alchohal fermentation do i still add my mlf nutrients when pitching the mlf?

Post inoculate: press as planned, what for alchohal fermentation to complete, rerack off gross lees, adjust ph/ta, pitch mlf nutrients and mlf bacteria.

If you go with the after fermentation, I wouldn't adjust the pH and ta before mlf, but wait until mlf done. Both will change with mlf.