My Chilean Juice Adventures

[AbruzziRed]

I just started 3 Chilean juices and I want to share my experiences to help others and get feedback as well.
This is my first big thread, I will update with progress and I would really appreciate any feedback you have on what I post.

Here is what I have:
Chilean Malbec juice 6 gallons:

• picked up 4/16,
• started AF morning of 4/18,
• Fermenting at 70F+
• yeast D254 (from this forum),
• Starting SG 1.091
• Added 4 pounds of grape skins from musto
• starting PH 3.7?
• 4/19 PM SG 1.040 PH 3.28 Temp 74, did not do TA measurement

Chilean Sauvignon Blanc juice 6 gallons:

• Picked up 4/16
• started AF morning of 4/18
• Fermenting in at 70F +
• 3 gallons with yeast D47 and 3 gallons with K1-V1116
• Starting SG 1.091
• PH 3.22?
• 4/19 PM SG 1.052 PH 3.35 Temp 70 for D47 Yeast, TA 4.8 g/L
• 4/19 PM SG 1.050 PH 3.23 Temp 74 for K1 yeast

Chilean Riesling juice 6 gallons:

• Picked up 4/16
• Started AF morning of 4/18
• Trying to ferment at low temp of around 55.
• Yeast R2
• Starting SG 1.1
• PH 3.77
• 4/19 PM SG 1.092, Temp 58 TA 4.0 g/L, added 4.6 g of Fermaid-O

Observations/learnings:
- Don’t wait over a day to start AF. Plan ahead, I was busy this past weekend and didn’t get time to go and take measurements/start AF.
- This is my first time using the Vinmetrica SC-300 and I was a little concerned that my PM calibrations were about .05 about the target. (Target 4.01, actual 4.06...)
- Should I have put the grape skins in a the cloth bag? Would make it easier to pull samples and not have floaties.
- Debating to transfer to bulk at 1.0 or 1.01 SG
- I plan to oak the Malbec with a medium toast oak stick but when I did this in my Montepulciano for 3 months, I could not taste it. Maybe it needs to sit longer.
- MLF in the Malbec? Some say yes some say no. My goal? A dry wine, lower on acid, fruity, soft on palet, a little oak.

 

[AbruzziRed]

Some pics from today that I could not add to the post due to iCloud sync issue

 

[Ajmassa]

lookin good.


- sounds like your meter calibrated correctly to me. read 4.05 initially. meter corrected itself to 4.01. no? new toy learning curves maybe?
- you could do a bag. but free floating just feels like ya get more extraction to me. probably doesn’t make a difference though.
- def mlf. always
-oak sticks gonna give all they got in that time. so if anything just do another stick after and check occasionally to reach desired level
-i like to transfer reds fully dry and get max time on skins unless other variables force an early press

 

[CDrew]

MLF will likely happen whether you want it or not, so I'd control that in the red wine. Add one of the well known strains like VP16 and let it rip.

You likely want the Riesling and SB to not undergo MLF, and you can prevent that with lysozyme when they finish fermentation.

I agree and like to transfer to the aging vessels when there is still some fermentation happening-like right at -0- Brix (SG 1.000). My theory is that is helps to purge out any O2 in the head space of the aging container. You will have to rack again in a few weeks anyway but it will get you off to a good start.

Regarding racking, you'll have to watch your new wine and see how much sediment you get. If the red in particular casts a significant sediment, you'll need to rack again after just a few days in bulk. THat will get the wine away from the grape skin bits that increase your risk of H2S. I would treat your red juice like a normal wine you have pressed, since you will have skin components in it regardless, and racking is the way to remove.

Regarding oak, shoot on the low side. You can always add more. I like oak as a subtle background flavor, not in your face.

 

[AbruzziRed]

@Ajmassa and @CDrew thanks for the feedback.

@CDrew, my bulk aging room holds a temp of 55F so if I transfer at 1.0 and start MFL, I think it will take a long time to complete, what do you think? I have a few reds from Fall of 2020 that I racked to the car boys at 1.0ish and they are still hanging at 1.0 and too sweet for my liking (Montepulciano and Sangiovese). I have CH16, will that work and should I keep the wine at 65-70?

For the whites, can’t I stop MLF with Kmeta addition at racking?

 

[AbruzziRed]

Second update, Day 3.

I am stirring every morning and night with SG measurement at night. Here are the stats:

Riesling

• Ferment temp 54F
• SG 1.078
• taste sweet and smooth

Sauvignon Blanc D47 Yeast

• Ferment temp 63
• SG 1.030

Sauvignon Blanc K1-V1116

• Ferment temp 68
• SG 1.020

Malbec

• Ferment temp 68
• SG 1.010
• this is fermenting fast!
• it’s cooking away

I turned off the the light bulb (heat source) to slow down the ferment, we will see how it progresses tomorrow.

Overall they all taste great and better at this stage then last years!

 

[AbruzziRed]

Day 5

Malbec SG 1.001 temp 66, going to give it one more day then rack to carboy. First time with skins so this will be a great learning experience.

Sauvignon Blanc with D47, SG 1.004 with temp at 70. We will see how it does tomorrow.

Sauvignon Blanc with K1-V1116, SG 1.004 with temp 67.

interesting that K1 was in the lead until yesterday...

Riesling is at 1.040 at temp 60. I want this to be slow. Probably rack early next week.

All wines are tasting great. I have never did a side by side if different yeast before. Taste profiles different but great.

pics of racking will come in next post.

 

[CDrew]

Sounds nice.

Theoretically, enough sulfite will inhibit MLF, but as the SO2 levels decline over time, you could still get a later fermentation. I had this happen in my Rose of Mourvedre in 2019. Literally 3 months after primary, and normal sulfite levels, and cool, around 62F, spontaneous MLF started up anyway. Ended up OK, that wine was pretty good.

I posted a pic of this here in post 14:
https://www.winemakingtalk.com/threads/saignee-real-time-help.70162/
But glad to hear you're having some good success now with your fermentations!

 

[MiBor]

My Chilean Sauvignon Blanc this year came in at pH 3.96, TA 0.4% and 23 brix. I thought maybe my pH meter has lost calibration in the 2 weeks I didn't use it, so I made fresh calibration solutions and found out that the meter was fine. Just to eliminate any possibility of error, I borrowed my neighbor's pH meter, calibrated it and measured the juice at 3.94. This is not the first time that my Chilean juice is out of balance. I believe they waited to harvest until the grapes had enough sugar and by that time a lot of the acid was gone. Or maybe the juice had too much sugar and they diluted it with just water/no tartaric acid.

Last year I decided to never buy red Bello juice again and to limit the quantity of white wine that I make. It would be a much better choice for me to use California juice in the fall, but that's when I make red wine from grapes and that's a lot of work in itself. Making white wine in the spring is ideal for me, but the quality of the juice from Chile is a hit/miss kind of deal (with emphasis on the miss part). I've been looking around trying to find South African juice, but nobody in my area sells it. Maybe I can have it shipped directly to my house from one of the distributors, but I haven't found a cost effective source yet.

 

[Rice_Guy]

Chile has several growing zones. What I have seen with a few years of buckets that club orders from Chile is that the gravity and pH is high, TA low. ,,, don’t know which zone we source juice from.

 

[cmason1957]

My wife has suggested to me that we never purchase Chilean juice buckets again. Just haven't been impressed with the juice to start with and the wine later on. Particularly the whites, they always seem to be about the same SG and as noted above higher Ph than you really want in a white. I wish grapes were an option here in the MidWest, but the only source is extremely over priced, so we just sit out the spring winemaking.

 

[AbruzziRed]

Thanks everyone for the feedback and conversations. It’s great to get a lot of data points from your experiences. I have been busy the past few days some updates are late.

Day 7:
Overall, I can not seem to get any of the 3 juices to finish under SG 1.000. I used 2 different Hydrometers, temperature measurements and adjustments.
All measurements were done before degassing, yes I am still learning and next time will degas.

Malbec:

• SG 1.00, PH 3.44, Free SO2 4ppm
• Transferred to secondary off the grape skins, added ML slurry with CH16 and acti-ML.
• Added medium toast French oak stick
• Keeping temp at 70.
• Stirring every few days
• as of today 4/29, still not seeing any ML activity...

Sauvignon Blanc:

• 3 Gal with D47 Yeast
• SG 1.000, PH 3.59, free SO2 6 ppm
• added .6g meta to secondary
• racked to secondary

• 3 Gal with K1-V1116 yeast
• SG 1.000, PH 3.57, free SO2 8ppm
• added .5g meta to secondary
• racked to secondary.

Both are clearing very well at a temp of 55-58, thinking about warming them up to 65-70 to try to ferment down to .996/.998

Riesling:

• SG 1.020, slow ferment at 60F, PH 3.20
• as of 4/29, SG is 1.000, (1.005 on 4/26) so dropping slow, still stirring every day.
• I am debating on adding some more R2 yeast to try to get this to dry. I would like this Riesling dry, it has enough fruit forward flavors that I like. ?? Would you add a bit more yeast?
• So I am debating on the yeast before racking to secondary. Or I rack to secondary with no Kmeta additions, keep warm at around 60 and let finish. Thoughts?

 

[heatherd]

My wife has suggested to me that we never purchase Chilean juice buckets again. Just haven't been impressed with the juice to start with and the wine later on. Particularly the whites, they always seem to be about the same SG and as noted above higher Ph than you really want in a white. I wish grapes were an option here in the MidWest, but the only source is extremely over priced, so we just sit out the spring winemaking.

@cmason1957 Have you tried frozen grape must from Brehm, Winegrapesdirect, or Musto? Or a grape pack from Mosti Mondiali? I have used those with a spring or fall juice bucket, or Walker's juice, or Australian juice from Presque Isle wine in the past with good results. I like that that the buckets from WGD, Musto, and Brehm are pH-balanced, TA-tested, and Brix tested. Some are more spendy than the others but still good options. The Mosti grape pack at $20 + shipping is a lot of bang for the buck, especially since I typically split between two batches of red juice.
WGD - Wine Grapes Direct
Brehm - Brehm Vineyards - Fine Wine From Fine Grapes
Musto - Frozen Must and Juice (juicegrape.com)
All-grape pack - Natural Grapes for Winemaking (juicegrape.com)
Walker - - Walker's Wine Juice, LLC
PIwine - Order Your Fresh Australian Juice Pails for Wine Making | Page 1 of 1 (piwine.com)

 

[heatherd]

My Chilean Sauvignon Blanc this year came in at pH 3.96, TA 0.4% and 23 brix. I thought maybe my pH meter has lost calibration in the 2 weeks I didn't use it, so I made fresh calibration solutions and found out that the meter was fine. Just to eliminate any possibility of error, I borrowed my neighbor's pH meter, calibrated it and measured the juice at 3.94. This is not the first time that my Chilean juice is out of balance. I believe they waited to harvest until the grapes had enough sugar and by that time a lot of the acid was gone. Or maybe the juice had too much sugar and they diluted it with just water/no tartaric acid.

Last year I decided to never buy red Bello juice again and to limit the quantity of white wine that I make. It would be a much better choice for me to use California juice in the fall, but that's when I make red wine from grapes and that's a lot of work in itself. Making white wine in the spring is ideal for me, but the quality of the juice from Chile is a hit/miss kind of deal (with emphasis on the miss part). I've been looking around trying to find South African juice, but nobody in my area sells it. Maybe I can have it shipped directly to my house from one of the distributors, but I haven't found a cost effective source yet.

@MiBor I know you can get Australian juice shipped to you from Presque Isle, in a shelf-stable format: Shiraz Australian Winemaking Juice (piwine.com) They have 2020 harvest pails still. I did a 12-gallon batch of a ($75 + shipping) Australian Cabernet juice and frozen Cabernet Sauvignon ($150 + shipping) must from Musto, both shipped to me. It turned out really well.

You can also get Brehm and Winegrapesdirect California white juice shipped frozen anytime you're ready to make it. They're pH-tested, Brix-tested, and TA tested so you can see what you're going to get before you buy. They have red must, white juice, and white must.
Shop — Wine Grapes Direct
White Varieties Archives - Brehm Vineyards

 

[cmason1957]

@cmason1957 Have you tried frozen grape must from Brehm, Winegrapesdirect, or Musto? Or a grape pack from Mosti Mondiali? I have used those with a spring or fall juice bucket, or Walker's juice, or Australian juice from Presque Isle wine in the past with good results. I like that that the buckets from WGD, Musto, and Brehm are pH-balanced, TA-tested, and Brix tested. Some are more spendy than the others but still good options. The Mosti grape pack at $20 + shipping is a lot of bang for the buck, especially since I typically split between two batches of red juice.
WGD - Wine Grapes Direct
Brehm - Brehm Vineyards - Fine Wine From Fine Grapes
Musto - Frozen Must and Juice (juicegrape.com)
All-grape pack - Natural Grapes for Winemaking (juicegrape.com)
Walker - - Walker's Wine Juice, LLC
PIwine - Order Your Fresh Australian Juice Pails for Wine Making | Page 1 of 1 (piwine.com)

I have not. I belive i looked at those and shipping to Missouri pots them out of what I am willing to spend.

 

[winemaker81]

My local group orders from Musto and we get a "good" price on shipping due to volume. The shipping is still kind of stiff, so I'd hate to see what normal rates are.

 

[AbruzziRed]

Day 10.
Riesling stuck at SG 1.00 since 4/29

Day 7 I warmed the Riesling up to 68 and stirred everyday and SG has still held at 1.000. My goal is get it too .996/.998. Should I wait any longer? It could be the yeast are not strong enough to finish. Do I stabilize and rack. I am still debating. What do you think?

 

[Ajmassa]

i would rack but not stabilize. why rush? There’s plenty of co2 in there to protect it for a while so no need to degas or add so2. (and really no need to ever degas since time will do it for ya) Sometimes that last little bit of fermentation limps across the finish line. So if mine i would rack and make sure it’s topped up and give it another few weeks in hopes it goes fully dry.

 

[Jbu60]

I'm a little late to the party, but where did you buy your juice from? The importer that I buy Chilean juice confirms that even though their juice pail say "100% juice" the contents are balanced for SG, adjusted for pH, and contains yeast already, all done in Chile...

 

[Ajmassa]

I'm a little late to the party, but where did you buy your juice from? The importer that I buy Chilean juice confirms that even though their juice pail say "100% juice" the contents are balanced for SG, adjusted for pH, and contains yeast already, all done in Chile...

was it the brand Toro ***** with a big bull logo? how did you confirm this info? couple years back i went on a damn mission to find out more details about my juice buckets contents. Getting info was like pulling teeth. things said on the phone would contradict info posted and i ended with more questions tbh.
None of them state that yeast was added and some specifically said - NO yeast was added. another brand - “Fuego” or something like that, was the only one that specifically said contains yeast. never had that brand tho

The biggest takeaway was the acid tho. when they balance the juice some brands will use citric acid for some reason. and citric affects the TA differently than tartaric would. if tartaric is weighted at 1g/L for TA i think citric clocks in a few ticks off— like .8 or 1.2 or something. enough to skew levels. So the TA might seem off from an ideal level. but is actually balanced. and also it might move more than expected if adjusting before fermentation too. this wasn’t the chilean brands tho. just a couple the cali brands.