My Chilean Juice Adventures

[Rice_Guy]

* ALL grapes in the vineyard contain yeast, (as well as Acetobacter, Bretanomycets, Flur, etc) the importer could be simply saying “the factory has not made a shelf stable juice with ALL micro killed”. Looking at club buckets it isn’t unusual to find samples actively fermenting however this spring did not.
* looking at the seven whites and eleven reds the vinters club ordered this year, it felt as if I was analyzing two tanks of juice with different labels (white zin was in between). The 2020 juice was equally consistent in gravity/ pH and TA. From a quality assurance perspective if the plant folks start with 100,000 gallons in a refrigerated silo(s) into frozen buckets (ie 35 shipping containers/ 460 pallets) I would expect fairly uniform quality.

. . . . Buckets are a fairly big business.

that even though their juice pail say "100% juice" the contents are balanced for SG, adjusted for pH, and contains yeast already, all done in Chile...

 

[Tigre Cieca di Bocco]

was it the brand Toro Negro with a big bull logo? how did you confirm this info?

The juice I just started is Toro Negro. When I was placing my order I asked why the Chilean Fresco was almost double the price of the Toro and was told the Fresco is fully balanced and inoculated, so you just pop it open and let it come to temp.

I was told the Toro Negro did not contain added yeast, just the natural yeast that will always be there, and they are sometimes adjusted acid wise. I bought one of each and plan on running them side by side along with taking all the pH and TA readings to see how "adjusted" each is. The Chilean Fresco should be in this week and the Toro Negro is fermenting along strongly.

 

[Ajmassa]

The juice I just started is Toro Negro. When I was placing my order I asked why the Chilean Fresco was almost double the price of the Toro and was told the Fresco is fully balanced and inoculated, so you just pop it open and let it come to temp.

I was told the Toro Negro did not contain added yeast, just the natural yeast that will always be there, and they are sometimes adjusted acid wise. I bought one of each and plan on running them side by side along with taking all the pH and TA readings to see how "adjusted" each is. The Chilean Fresco should be in this week and the Toro Negro is fermenting along strongly.

ahh Fresco. yes. that’s what i meant when i said ‘fuego’ as the one brand that contains an added yeast at the plant.

not sure why it would be double price though. just for yeast? my bet is the person giving you that info wasn’t fully informed. Because i’m pretty sure all brands are balanced. They almost have to be. Just by the fact that the juice is in the bucket means it went through a process that basically doesn’t allow for it NOt to be balanced. maybe fresco’s plant is more high tech. i know some do this high heat spinning cone/flash detente method to produce a dense concentrate. They use that for the color darkening since apparently the regular juice goes thru crush& press so fast it ends up losing a ton of what it would have been if fermented on skins.
Also pretty sure they all have enologists on staff to oversee it all. And it’s just logical to think they’d also be keeping brix and acid at ideal levels as well. IMO brix, acid, and color balancing are assumed. But so2 and cultured yeast — those are the wildcards.

looking forward to seeing how your 2 buckets compare. we are doing a chilean and south african this week

 

[Ajmassa]

also just got my order in from morewine today. got a couple of those additive packs specifically made for frozen brehms must buckets but work just as well for juice buckets. love this pack. red additive pack
$8 (was $5) for single packets of goFerm, fermK, FT rouge tannin, opti-red, & lallzyme EX.

 

[AbruzziRed]

Hi Everyone it’s been a while since I have posted any updates. I have been reading all the replies and personal messages and learning a lot.
So a quick update as we are a month in since the purchase of the Chilean juice.

Malbec - MLF is pretty much done based on Chromotagraphy test (see pic). I am going to test again in a week and then rack.

SB- settling nicely in the secondary with a balanced dose of kmeta (previous post)

Riesling- I racked off gross lees, did not add any k meta and have kept warm with stirring (every few days) and can not get the SG below 1.0. Maybe that’s the final. I am going to give it one more week then stabilize it.

 

[winemaker81]

Riesling- I racked off gross lees, did not add any k meta and have kept warm with stirring (every few days) and can not get the SG below 1.0. Maybe that’s the final. I am going to give it one more week then stabilize it.

I looked up R2, it's supposed to handle 16% ABV, so I don't expect that's the problem, unless you have seriously underachieving yeast.

Other than adding a bit of nutrient, I don't know what you can do. If it was me, I'd put it under airlock and ignore it for 3 months. Well, not completely ignore it, I'd keep an eye on the airlock but not touch it unless there is activity, e.g., stuff blowing out the airlock. Then check the SG. If it hasn't moved, I figure it's not going to. When ready, stabilize and bottle.

 

[opus345]

I've always worried about wines I've ignore and then they end up being some of my better efforts.

 

[Ajmassa]

Well i’ll be damned. Kudos to South Africa for their transparency.

 

[Tigre Cieca di Bocco]

@Ajmassa that is interesting. The Toro Negro brand is manufactured by the same company in Ontario, but the pail only has the same warning label not mention of what the contents are outside fresh must.

 

[Saxton Cellars]

Hey AJ,

What parts of that packet do you use for your juice and at what stages do you use them.

 

[AbruzziRed]

Update 7 Day 43...

Well I have been extremely busy since the weather started to warm up but I got a chance to hang out in the wine room over the past few days. Two of the wines are turning out better then expected. They are racked again and will continue to bulk age. Here are the details:

Malbec:
Free SO2 20.2ppm
PH 3.52
TA 4 g/L
ABV 12.2%
1 medium oak stick in secondary for a few weeks

MLF completed in a few weeks!
Based on Daniel P’s SO2 calculator, I added .1g of kmeta at the racking.
Added a new medium oak stick at racking.
The wine is soft and light but has the note of cherry and no tongue burn. It needs a year but it seems promising. Although I am not as familiar with Malbecs as I am with Italian Reds, but drinking some commercial Malbec while working on mine helps.


Riesling:
Free SO2 8ppm
PH 3.41
TA 6.6g/L
ABV 13.6%

Racked and added .7g kmeta per the SO2 Calculator. I racked from a 5 gallon and 1 gallon into a 6 gallon and have s lot of head space. I am using the head space eliminator from AIO but I may top off with a bottle of Riesling, don’t know yet.
As far as taste, it has a great grapefuit finish, soft at first but a slight tingle in the throat. Maybe a 4 - 6 more months, I think it will be good by Christmas.

Happy wine adventures all and have a great Summer!

 

[JBP]

So how often do you check MLF? I just checked my Chilean buckets (5 weeks post-inoculation) with Accuvin strips and they are both at ~75mg/L. At this point, should I be checking weekly, monthly or on some other schedule?

 

[AbruzziRed]

So how often do you check MLF? I just checked my Chilean buckets (5 weeks post-inoculation) with Accuvin strips and they are both at ~75mg/L. At this point, should I be checking weekly, monthly or on some other schedule?

How long you wait for MLF to finish depends on temp of the wine. I kept mine around 70-75.
keep checking every week until there is no color change on the strips (according to the website).

 

[AbruzziRed]

Update Day 164:

Well its been a while since my last update. With work from home and then the crazy Summer I did not get to rack my wine in June like I wanted. I just tested, adjusted and racked today and I was quite surprised how good it was. So here are the details:

Sauvignon Blanc with D47 yeast:
- Tasted @ 64deg but was smooth calm fruity and balanced on the tongue
- SG .994
- ABV 12.73%
- PH 3.65
- Free SO2 measured 8 ppm, added .2g (3 gallons) to get it to target 20 ppm (According to Winemaking Tools – Daniel Pambianchi)
- I racked the wine and will let sit another month or so. I may try blending in November with the other SB

Sauvignon Blanc with K1-V1116 Yeast
- Tasted @ 64 deg. This tasted good but had a byte to it. I call it a sharp taste. Interesting is the ABV and PH are the same but Free SO 2 was different. This shows what Yeast can do.
- SG .994
- ABV 12.73%
- PH 3.65
- Free SO2 measured 6ppm, added .3g for 3 gallons and racked.
- I racked this one and I am going to do bench trials and blend with the D47 SB.

SB Observations: I bought 6 gallons of juice and split it down the middle with D47 and K1-1116 yeast. They sat next to each other the whole time, maintained the same temp and everything. Yeast DOES make a big difference!!


Chilean Malbec:
- Tasted at temp 64 Deg. It dried up but it seems sort of flat. I am not a wine expert as far as tasting characteristics but its missing structure even after sitting with a medium oak stick for about 4 months.
- PH 3.63
- SG .994
- ABV 12.7%
- Free SO2 at around 22 PPM so not adjustments.
- MLF completed
- TA 36g/L
- Racked and will let this sit for another 6 months.


Chilean Riesling:
- Tasted at temp 64 and cooled. This is an awesome dry fruity not as citric Riesling. I made this for a friend and she likes it sweeter so I will have to back sweeten when bottling.
- Free SO2 6ppm and adjusted to 20 ppm with 5.1 ml of 10% kmeta solution.
- PH 3.52
- Racked and will bottle before Christmas.


Overall this has been an awesome learning experience and experiment. Just documenting this on this forum and getting your feedback has helped me think about my steps and what to do next time.

Till next time!

 

[Rice_Guy]

It would be interesting if you could edit this post (about 24 hours till it is locked) to add SG on everything, TA on the two yeast trials.

Curious what time will do, ,,, since you have excellent numbers, ,,, with some of my rhubarb wines I have looked back and seen the TA is lower with the older wine (same process) it drops in half over five years. (I have seen two notes on the web which say that esthers are forming which effectively removes acids from the beverage ) It would be interesting to see what your grape does with time

 

[AbruzziRed]

It would be interesting if you could edit this post (about 24 hours till it is locked) to add SG on everything, TA on the two yeast trials.

Curious what time will do, ,,, since you have excellent numbers, ,,, with some of my rhubarb wines I have looked back and seen the TA is lower with the older wine (same process) it drops in half over five years. (I have seen two notes on the web which say that esthers are forming which effectively removes acids from the beverage ) It would be interesting to see what your grape does with time

Hi @Rice_Guy I added SG in (need to check notes for Riesling at home). I need to measure TA soon. Its also interesting that these juice buckets all came in at starting SG 1.091 and finished at .994. Never had that before. I will keep measuring over time but the wine may not be around after 5 years

 

[Dan M]

It looks like this thread has been quiet for a while, but also looks like a good place for my post. I ordered a Chilean Pinot Grigio juice bucket, which should come in near the end of April. I've only made kits so far and want to give this a whirl. I plan to "make it like a kit" but also have a few other thoughts and uncertainties. Here goes...

-Use a yeast starter, similar to FWK.
-Use Lalvin EC-1118 (open to suggestions).
-Add oak chips and golden raisins to the primary.
-Backsweeten with sugar to semi-sweet before bottling (open to other methods).

I'm reading through many threads now for ideas, but if you've been down this road and have any suggestions, tips or advice, please reply. As always, thanks to all for your support in my journey!

 

[mainshipfred]

Nothing wrong with your plan and congratulations on your graduation to juice buckets.

 

[Chuck E]

I-Use a yeast starter, similar to FWK.
-Use Lalvin EC-1118 (open to suggestions).
-Add oak chips and golden raisins to the primary.
-Backsweeten with sugar to semi-sweet before bottling (open to other methods)

Be careful not to put too many raisins in the primary. Too much can turn the wine orange. It won't marr the taste but it is an unusual color. Try about one cup to start. Ferment on the cool side 60-70F. Other yeasts besides EC-1118 will help, I use Allegra.

 

[Rice_Guy]

* Chilean buckets from Prairie Vinters have been extremely consistent gravity as 1.089 to 1.091. If your bucket is the same region as we get acid tends to run low. ,,,, It will be a good idea to check pH and TA.
* The yeast companies suggest a starter. I haven’t ever done a starter though, it just works
* 1118 always works, I have used a lot of Bm4x4, These both require a good nutrient regime. Renaissance yeast will let you be more sloppy on nitrogen. ,,, With whites watch for H2S and mercaptan flavors (skunk). ,,, Low levels of H2S will hide fruity aromatics.
* A good YAN regime is Fermaid O at the start and Fermaid K at 1/3 sugar fermentation. Organic nitrogen is supposed to give a smoother fermentation. For yeast, Chemical nitrogen is like giving candy to a two year old.
* oak, sure. Consider adding more as cubes or staves after racking. ? Raisins ? why ? are you expecting low body or low flavor, raisins won’t hurt anything.
* Better aromatics if you run cool and long.

Here goes...
-Use a yeast starter, similar to FWK.
-Use Lalvin EC-1118 (open to suggestions).
-Add oak chips and golden raisins to the primary.
-Backsweeten with sugar to semi-sweet before bottling (open to other methods).
, but if you've been down this road !

You can run buckets like a kit. You should be able to accomplish better flavor than a kit.