Nebbiolo

[CoastalEmpireWine]

Good afternoon everyone. I am thinking of different wines to make next year. I believe I will try to make a Nebbiolo from grapes. A local company brings them in from Italy. Has anyone done this before? I hear it can be quite challenging. I am still newer to making wine from grapes. Any advice or recommendations would be greatly appreciated!!

 

[winemaker81]

Without knowing how much you know about grapes, I'll give you a laundry list.

You need access to a crusher, although if you're making a small amount, you can use various sanitized items to crush. All you really need to do is break the skins.

Nebbiolo is a lighter grape -- adding a maceration enzyme such as Scottzyme ColorPro will extract more color and generally produce more body.

Ferment to completion before pressing. The extra time on the skins makes a deeper wine.

Use rice hulls when pressing, as it significantly increases yield. You don't need much -- last fall I calculated that I'd need a max of 8 lbs for 684 lbs of grapes, and purchased 10 lbs hulls to ensure I was set. I used less than 2 lbs, so I have enough for the next 4 years ...

 

[CoastalEmpireWine]

Without knowing how much you know about grapes, I'll give you a laundry list.

You need access to a crusher, although if you're making a small amount, you can use various sanitized items to crush. All you really need to do is break the skins.

Nebbiolo is a lighter grape -- adding a maceration enzyme such as Scottzyme ColorPro will extract more color and generally produce more body.

Ferment to completion before pressing. The extra time on the skins makes a deeper wine.

Use rice hulls when pressing, as it significantly increases yield. You don't need much -- last fall I calculated that I'd need a max of 8 lbs for 684 lbs of grapes, and purchased 10 lbs hulls to ensure I was set. I used less than 2 lbs, so I have enough for the next 4 years ...

I own a crusher/destemmer and press. I’ve made a few wines from grapes, after 9 years of wine kits, meads and fruit wines. My question is more on the lines of:

How do you handle the high acidity of this grape? Do you find that typically you have to raise the pH levels to start fermentation? Any benefits from cold soaking?

I’ve never made a Nebbiolo but everything I’ve read from them is that they can be a difficult grape to make good wine from.

 

[winemaker81]

Gotcha.

I've not made Nebbiolo, but have made a fair number of high acid wines. I'd crush the grapes and let them warm up (the CA grapes I buy are shipped cold and take a couple days to warm up). You can add dry ice if you want to cold soak longer. With the use of ColorPro I don't have a need for a longer soak.

Check the pH a day after crushing. If it's 2.9 or above, I'd not alter it. If it's below 2.9, then potassium bicarbonate is recommended by the Australian Wine Research Institute. I'd target the adjustment at pH 3.0. I've had bad experiences in reducing acid, so I proceed cautiously -- as I'm fond of saying, it's easier to add more than to take some out.

https://www.awri.com.au/industry_su...s/frequently_asked_questions/deacidification/
Post-fermentation, bulk age the wine at least 3 months before worrying more about acid levels. If the wine tastes acidic, you can adjust with more potassium bicarbonate, or by blending with a low acid wine. If chemically adjusting the wine, use small increments and let the wine rest at least a week in between additions to meld.

I'd blend before reducing chemically, but that's me.

 

[CoastalEmpireWine]

Gotcha.

I've not made Nebbiolo, but have made a fair number of high acid wines. I'd crush the grapes and let them warm up (the CA grapes I buy are shipped cold and take a couple days to warm up). You can add dry ice if you want to cold soak longer. With the use of ColorPro I don't have a need for a longer soak.

Check the pH a day after crushing. If it's 2.9 or above, I'd not alter it. If it's below 2.9, then potassium bicarbonate is recommended by the Australian Wine Research Institute. I'd target the adjustment at pH 3.0. I've had bad experiences in reducing acid, so I proceed cautiously -- as I'm fond of saying, it's easier to add more than to take some out.

https://www.awri.com.au/industry_su...s/frequently_asked_questions/deacidification/
Post-fermentation, bulk age the wine at least 3 months before worrying more about acid levels. If the wine tastes acidic, you can adjust with more potassium bicarbonate, or by blending with a low acid wine. If chemically adjusting the wine, use small increments and let the wine rest at least a week in between additions to meld.

I'd blend before reducing chemically, but that's me.

Thank you. I wasn’t sure where to begin with pH levels and what would be acceptable. I would definitely blend over chemical adjustments. I usually let my wine bulk age for no less than a year.

I want to make a Pinot Noir as well but I can’t find fresh grapes, only must/juice pails. The grapes arrive here cold as well.

Have you ever used Opti Red? Is it similar to ColorPro?

 

[winemaker81]

pH 2.9 is stated as a cutoff for pH, so I suggested that.

I have not used Opti Red, although a lot of folks on the forum do. Following are descriptions of the two products -- both produce good results. I'm not sure if they can be used together.

https://shop.scottlab.com/scottzyme-color-pro-sctzmcp
https://shop.scottlab.com/opti-red-optired

 

[Neb Farmer]

I crush and destem , then ferment.

Once fermentation is complete, I press

I rack-off from the lees within a day or two after pressing, and put the wine into an appropriate container with an airlock.

I add malolactic culture at this point and let nature do its' thing! I'll use Opti-Malo at this time, also.


In short...I found BM45 yeast to bring out the 'nebbiolo' in a typical nebb fashion. Some yeast seems to not do that at all. BM45 and some GoFerm Protect Evo nutrient is pretty much what I use


Good luck! Nebbiolo is a great wine!

 

[CoastalEmpireWine]

I crush and destem , then ferment.

Once fermentation is complete, I press

I rack-off from the lees within a day or two after pressing, and put the wine into an appropriate container with an airlock.

I add malolactic culture at this point and let nature do its' thing! I'll use Opti-Malo at this time, also.


In short...I found BM45 yeast to bring out the 'nebbiolo' in a typical nebb fashion. Some yeast seems to not do that at all. BM45 and some GoFerm Protect Evo nutrient is pretty much what I use


Good luck! Nebbiolo is a great wine!

I have a crusher/destemmer.

What are the typical pH ranges you see on your Nebbiolo? Any cold soaking?

I was looking at either BM45 or Renaissance Bravo yeast. I always use some sort of yeast hydration product.

Do you put yours through MLF?

 

[Nebbiolo020]

pH 2.9 is stated as a cutoff for pH, so I suggested that.

I have not used Opti Red, although a lot of folks on the forum do. Following are descriptions of the two products -- both produce good results. I'm not sure if they can be used together.

https://shop.scottlab.com/scottzyme-color-pro-sctzmcp
https://shop.scottlab.com/opti-red-optired

Color pro is great but the cost is not great, so I have switched commercially and at home to laffort HE Grand Cru which is extremely similar and half the cost and works really well.

I also use opti red and it is a solid product and does make a difference I highly recommend it.

In regards to Nebbiolo getting better color is not easy as it lacks the pigments similar to Grenache so you’re not really going to get any better color with enzymes or soaking. It is also highly acidic and tannic and is probably the harshest grape you can work with it’s not uncommon for some Nebbiolo based wines to need like 10 years aging to even be drinkable.

 

[winemaker81]

Color pro is great but the cost is not great, so I have switched commercially and at home to laffort HE Grand Cru which is extremely similar and half the cost and works really well.

VERY true. The price on Color Pro is high, and the S&H is a screw job. I'll look into your recommendation this fall.

Yup -- even Color Pro didn't get much color from Grenache last fall, as there's not much color to get. It did produce a deep wine, so regardless of color, I'm happy with the result.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

VERY true. The price on Color Pro is high, and the S&H is a screw job. I'll look into your recommendation this fall.

Yup -- even Color Pro didn't get much color from Grenache last fall, as there's not much color to get. It did produce a deep wine, so regardless of color, I'm happy with the result.

Sounds like the gsm I made last fall lol, if you pour less than half a glass it has a very light rose color and could read a book through it. Half a glass and it looks somewhat like a very light red like Pinot. Wasn’t happy with it because it was super one dimensional and doesn’t have much going on so I pruned the heck out of the vines this year to try and lower the yields so we get less grapes and I might get more structure.

 

[winemaker81]

Sounds like the gsm I made last fall lol, if you pour less than half a glass it has a very light rose color and could read a book through it. Half a glass and it looks somewhat like a very light red like Pinot. Wasn’t happy with it because it was super one dimensional and doesn’t have much going on so I pruned the heck out of the vines this year to try and lower the yields so we get less grapes and I might get more structure.

Actually, I'm pleased with the Grenache. While it doesn't have the color I'd like, it has great body and surprising tannin mixed with fruit. The Grenache flavor is surprisingly strong, and the after taste lingers. I'm going bottle a couple of gallons as-is, no blending. Note this wine is only 4 month old.



Conversely, the blending wine we made (Mourvedre, Petite Sirah, Syrah) is strongly colored and has a bold, up-front taste. But the aftertaste disappears immediately, which is disappointing.

We made an eye-ball 80/20 blend last fall, and the resulting wine was amazing for a totally green wine. The blending wine dominated up front, but the Grenache aftertaste took control. I fully understand why southern Rhone is a Grenache dominant blend with Syrah and other reds.

 

[Nebbiolo020]

Actually, I'm pleased with the Grenache. While it doesn't have the color I'd like, it has great body and surprising tannin mixed with fruit. The Grenache flavor is surprisingly strong, and the after taste lingers. I'm going bottle a couple of gallons as-is, no blending. Note this wine is only 4 month old.

View attachment 98764

Conversely, the blending wine we made (Mourvedre, Petite Sirah, Syrah) is strongly colored and has a bold, up-front taste. But the aftertaste disappears immediately, which is disappointing.

We made an eye-ball 80/20 blend last fall, and the resulting wine was amazing for a totally green wine. The blending wine dominated up front, but the Grenache aftertaste took control. I fully understand why southern Rhone is a Grenache dominant blend with Syrah and other reds.

I usually prefer Rhone blends where Syrah is dominant, one of the wineries I worked for did 3 gsm blends and varietal Grenache, varietal Syrah and varietal Mourvèdre on top of it.

Never felt the Grenache dominant blends had the structure that I wanted.

 

[Neb Farmer]

I have a crusher/destemmer.

What are the typical pH ranges you see on your Nebbiolo? Any cold soaking?

I was looking at either BM45 or Renaissance Bravo yeast. I always use some sort of yeast hydration product.

Do you put yours through MLF?

The nebbiolo I grow here in SW Washington state tend to be low in Brix and acidic. My Brix levels are low, so I have to 'bump up' the sugar level a few Brix levels.
The pH for my grapes is almost always around 2.9 to 3.1 . Nebbiolo grown in the warmer,drier Eastern Washington areas typically have a pH or 3.5 to 3.7 . And their Brix is 24 and above. They are so lucky with perfect nebbiolo!
I don't cold soak. I pick and then immediately run the grapes through crushing and destemming, and then fermenting for 10 to 14 days. THEN press. I find that I get a really good nebbiolo color by the time I go to pressing. Remember, typical nebbiolo is not a ruby red, but more of a brickish color. It's gorgeous!
I do put mine through MLF, usually adding the malolactic culture to the wine after I rack off from the lees.
I age my nebbiolo at least 2 years before drinking. It is acidic, even after malo. Time makes it a little nicer.