Message me when you get everything sorted and I'll give you my postal information and you can get me a quote.
New Barrels for Forum Members
- Thread starter mainshipfred
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Help Support Winemaking Talk - Winemaking Forum:
I have two 25l and one 30l left. I'm not a vendor I just got this distributorship to help others with cost. I plan on making another order in January if I get enough interest but won't receive them until July or August.
I haven't shipped yet. Everyone was relatively local and we had a meet up. What's your zip code? I might be able to figure shipping by that. The 30 might be tough unless you blend but you could use marbles to get the 25 topped up, or blend.
It's asking for a shipping address. PM me if you like.
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Explore Plastic tanks
All wine makers strive to produce a consistent, high quality product. The consistency of performance between Flextank vessels, and the availability of a wide range of oak adjuncts in the form of staves, chips, spirals, blocks etc., allow a winemaker a veritable smorgasbord of opportunity to experiment with flavor in a reproducible environment. Used as a primary fermentor and as a storage/maturation vessel, these tanks provide all barrel functions with more winemaker control, in a hygienic and long-lasting vessel made from food grade polyethylene with characteristics near that of a new barrel in oxygenation environment for wine maturation
All wine makers strive to produce a consistent, high quality product. The consistency of performance between Flextank vessels, and the availability of a wide range of oak adjuncts in the form of staves, chips, spirals, blocks etc., allow a winemaker a veritable smorgasbord of opportunity to experiment with flavor in a reproducible environment. Used as a primary fermentor and as a storage/maturation vessel, these tanks provide all barrel functions with more winemaker control, in a hygienic and long-lasting vessel made from food grade polyethylene with characteristics near that of a new barrel in oxygenation environment for wine maturation
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Ajmassa
just a guy
Spoken like a true advertisement! Lol. In spite of the very corporate/marketing type nomenclature- you still got my attention. Do you have any links or literature to share (aside from your site. I assume you sell them and will share the link here as well) that details how flextanks can mimic a barrel’s micro-oxygenation benefits?
If this is common of most flextanks then I somehow missed that bit of info. I suppose I could google it- but I’m kinda interested to hear what you’ve got to share and say about it
I'm always open to suggestion and ideas so I did look into it. It does appear polyethylene is permeable to air but in reading further everything says near or similar but nothing equal to, I can't seem to find an example of the exchange rate. They advertise you will not lose the angel's share which I always thought improved the wine. These tanks are limited in size for the home winemaker with the smaller sizes being 15, 30 and 70 gallons. They make an accessory called skins "They are floated on top of the wine to reduce absorption of oxygen from the tank headspace when the tank is partially filled". They also say you must purge the remaining head space with an inert gas. The skins range in price from ~$50 to ~$80 and are a one time use. I'm not totally knocking them and sure they are a quality product and have many good uses, I'm just not sold yet. Hopefully Flextank can share more knowledge then I can find on the website. FWIW I make like $15.00 a barrel to cover interest since I prepay and don't ask for anything in advance. It's not a profit center I just do it to help others defer costs.
Well let's see if I can answer your questions to your satisfaction. The tanks we have are about the same as a second use barrel when you are lookin into the how permeable the tanks are. There are certain things which are kept in house as we don't want all our secrets released. Angel's share does not improve the wine it just means you have to top the barrel more often. You can insert inert gas into the tank to displace the oxygen from the bottom valve or from the top cap with an adapter. After you fill the tank you should wait 10 days to see if you need to top the tank off. The tank are transparent so you will see if you have an air bubble. Once the tank is top off you will not have to refill tank. You are correct that the smallest tank we make is a 15 gallon. Most wine makers will have several sizes of plastic tanks and when you have less than 15 gallon you can use your glass carboys. I agree the skin is costly for an one time use and I don't reamend there use because of the cost.
Thanks, very helpful. There are a lot of folks out there that make 15+ gallon batches. Mine are 8 to 10. Is there a reason you compare it to a second use barrel? I'm having trouble understanding that one.
Ajmassa
just a guy
So your tanks are different than standard flextanks - which can mimic the micro-ox benefit, but how is this able to happen? From the type of permeable plastics used ?
So if it’s a special extra permeable plastic how is the level remaining constant?
And is it necessary to own some sort of inert gas system if using these tanks?
I’m not understanding how micro-oxygenation is occurring without losing any volume during aging. (Unless you are- but just not topping up and using gas instead)
Evaporation and Oxidation are two completely different things. One is a movement (loss) of water (which can happen easily through porous wood staves with joints i.e. a barrel) the other a chemical reaction involving oxygen (which can move in and out of plastic depending on its design and permeability)
Ajmassa
just a guy
Ok. But In terms of how oxygen affects wine in a barrel- they are both caused by the same thing:the wine exposed to o2 in small amounts over time
The porous wood allowing the micro o2 exposure over time- and seeing the vol decrease is also a byproduct from this o2 exposure. Which offers the added benefit of concentration that is unique to barrels
So my question still remains- if a special secret permeable flextank plastic technology exists that allows o2 in for micro oxidation- how is evaporation also not occurring if wine is being exposed to small amounts of o2 over time? Logic would say there would evaporation, no?
I’m asking about the tech here and the claim that it mimics the oxygen benefits of a barrel. And for any literature on these specific tanks.
I’m intrigued by it. But Saying it is “secret” isn’t exactly selling it. And shilling flextanks on a thread where a member was using his barrel connection to help other members for no profit doesn’t help the cause either.
Not only that, doing it without being a sponsor, I believe, is against the rules of this forum.
I won’t even delve into the roundabout claim / dribble that concentration doesn’t improve wine.
stickman
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@Ajmassa5983 You know I have no affiliation with Flextank, although I have 4 of their 30gal tanks and have been using them for several years with no problems to report.
There is no secret to the gas permeability of polyethylene, all of the packaging manufacturers are well aware of how food products react to being stored in various plastics etc. The secret is the same for most manufactured products, and is related to the trial and error and testing/verification of final product specifications. For a polyethylene tank, the specific polyethylene molecular weight, formulation, the thickness, as well as any surface treatments, is critical to the final oxygen permeability. The oxygen transfer rate for a 190l Flextank tank based on a published study (Universidad de Valladolid Avda. de Madrid, 2010) is around 2mg/l per month.
Oxygen can get through the tank wall, but evaporation is limited by the size of the molecules, so the larger size of water and ethanol prevents these materials from passing through the polyethylene at any appreciable rate. Evaporation for a barrel depends on the cellar humidity, as well as the type of wood and stave thickness, but published rates are somewhere around 10% for a 24 month aging period, and that has to have some effect on the final product.
Just my opinion on taste, I think the barrel is still the gold standard for big reds, I've used 30gal barrels in the past, but all of the other positive features of the polyethylene tank, micro-ox, choice of fresh wood, empty storage, ease of handling and cleaning etc., make it a strong contender for me. Don't get me wrong, I still salivate seeing the full size barrels being used by @Johnd @NorCal and others.
There is no secret to the gas permeability of polyethylene, all of the packaging manufacturers are well aware of how food products react to being stored in various plastics etc. The secret is the same for most manufactured products, and is related to the trial and error and testing/verification of final product specifications. For a polyethylene tank, the specific polyethylene molecular weight, formulation, the thickness, as well as any surface treatments, is critical to the final oxygen permeability. The oxygen transfer rate for a 190l Flextank tank based on a published study (Universidad de Valladolid Avda. de Madrid, 2010) is around 2mg/l per month.
Oxygen can get through the tank wall, but evaporation is limited by the size of the molecules, so the larger size of water and ethanol prevents these materials from passing through the polyethylene at any appreciable rate. Evaporation for a barrel depends on the cellar humidity, as well as the type of wood and stave thickness, but published rates are somewhere around 10% for a 24 month aging period, and that has to have some effect on the final product.
Just my opinion on taste, I think the barrel is still the gold standard for big reds, I've used 30gal barrels in the past, but all of the other positive features of the polyethylene tank, micro-ox, choice of fresh wood, empty storage, ease of handling and cleaning etc., make it a strong contender for me. Don't get me wrong, I still salivate seeing the full size barrels being used by @Johnd @NorCal and others.
Due to your background I always take your input, especially on matters like this, with open arms. I tried reading a couple studies but they honestly went over my head. So some questions:
You referenced oxygen transfer of the tank to be 2mg/l per month for the specified tank. I know this is a loaded question due to size, wood and other factors but do you have any idea transfer rate of a comparable size barrel?
In your opinion is transfer in and out of the vessel or one or the other? This may go back to the first question and if the transfer rate is sizably different and is an in and out transfer I wonder how this would impact the wine differently.
I agree all the cleaning, handling and storage benefits so my last question is the treatment of the headspace. How do you deal with that?
Thanks in advance!
NorCal
Senior Member
If you look at the Flextank patent, their hdpe composition is unique in that it mimics the micro-oxidation of a second year barrel. It's a good product and has it's place, especially with home winemaking.
I think stating that the concentrating effects of the barrel "does not improve the wine" is misinformed. It is quite logical that if you replace evaporated water with wine, that as a result, you would have a more concentrated wine. Maybe you could argue negligible impact (~10% improvement of flavor concentration), just based on the math, since the essence in the taste of the wine is around 3% of the volume in a bottle of wine. Lets take all the red wine double gold winners & above winners at the SF Chronical Wine Competition and see how many are NOT using barrels. Not sure you would find many if any at all.
I think stating that the concentrating effects of the barrel "does not improve the wine" is misinformed. It is quite logical that if you replace evaporated water with wine, that as a result, you would have a more concentrated wine. Maybe you could argue negligible impact (~10% improvement of flavor concentration), just based on the math, since the essence in the taste of the wine is around 3% of the volume in a bottle of wine. Lets take all the red wine double gold winners & above winners at the SF Chronical Wine Competition and see how many are NOT using barrels. Not sure you would find many if any at all.
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This whole discussion has been intriguing. Been trying to dig into it a litle. I found this article about the O2 transfer rate of oak barrels. But not sure exactly what it says. There many different numbers.
Different theories have developed in the past 100 years regarding how oxygen enters wine barrels. In 1931 J. Ribereau-Gayon confirmed that O2 entered the barrel by assessing the formation of SO4-2 after filling a barrel with an aqueous SO2 solution. Ribereau-Gayon found that the oxygen transfer rate (OTR) through the oak wood was limited (2 to 5 ml/L per year) and that the main route of O2 entry occurred where the wine was in contact with the gas in the headspace of the barrel. The total rate at which oxygen enters wine barrels varies with the time of year from 11.08 to 14.77 mg/L per year (based on 1 mg ≈ 1.35 ml at 15º C) in hermetically sealed barrels and from 1.48 to 3.69 mg/L per year in unsealed barrels.9 M. Moutounet wrote: “If we examine the results of the studies of Ribereau-Gayon (1931) on the penetration of oxygen, we observe that in a situation of permanent topping-up at atmospheric pressure, the oxygen transferred is evaluated at between 2 and 5 ml/L per year, whereas in barrels with an airtight bung the oxygen that penetrates is around 15 to 20 ml per year. This data can be explained by the existence of negative pressure inside the barrel, which favors gas entry.”
Read more at: https://www.winesandvines.com/suppliernews/article/161508/Oxygen-Transfer-Rate-in-Oak-Barrels
Copyright © Wines & Vines
https://www.winesandvines.com/suppliernews/article/161508/Oxygen-Transfer-Rate-in-Oak-Barrels
Different theories have developed in the past 100 years regarding how oxygen enters wine barrels. In 1931 J. Ribereau-Gayon confirmed that O2 entered the barrel by assessing the formation of SO4-2 after filling a barrel with an aqueous SO2 solution. Ribereau-Gayon found that the oxygen transfer rate (OTR) through the oak wood was limited (2 to 5 ml/L per year) and that the main route of O2 entry occurred where the wine was in contact with the gas in the headspace of the barrel. The total rate at which oxygen enters wine barrels varies with the time of year from 11.08 to 14.77 mg/L per year (based on 1 mg ≈ 1.35 ml at 15º C) in hermetically sealed barrels and from 1.48 to 3.69 mg/L per year in unsealed barrels.9 M. Moutounet wrote: “If we examine the results of the studies of Ribereau-Gayon (1931) on the penetration of oxygen, we observe that in a situation of permanent topping-up at atmospheric pressure, the oxygen transferred is evaluated at between 2 and 5 ml/L per year, whereas in barrels with an airtight bung the oxygen that penetrates is around 15 to 20 ml per year. This data can be explained by the existence of negative pressure inside the barrel, which favors gas entry.”
Read more at: https://www.winesandvines.com/suppliernews/article/161508/Oxygen-Transfer-Rate-in-Oak-Barrels
Copyright © Wines & Vines
https://www.winesandvines.com/suppliernews/article/161508/Oxygen-Transfer-Rate-in-Oak-Barrels
stickman
Veteran Winemaker
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2014
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You referenced oxygen transfer of the tank to be 2mg/l per month for the specified tank. I know this is a loaded question due to size, wood and other factors but do you have any idea transfer rate of a comparable size barrel?
Studies have been done over the years, Vivas 1997, The numbers range between 10mg/L/yr for old barrels, and 20 to 45mg/L/yr for new barrels. There are some discussions regarding how much oxygen is actually going through the wood and between staves, and how much oxygen is contained in new wood. The way Flextanks are made, the oxygen transfer rate is scaled up accordingly, so theoretically a 100gal tank provides the same 2mg/l/yr as does a 60gal tank as does a 30gal tank.
In your opinion is transfer in and out of the vessel or one or the other? This may go back to the first question and if the transfer rate is sizably different and is an in and out transfer I wonder how this would impact the wine differently.
Plastic is permeable both ways, but the rate and direction depends on molecule size as well as pressure or concentration difference across the wall; you have a constant supply of oxygen on the outside of the tank and near zero concentration in the wine, therefore the oxygen moves into the wine where it is immediately consumed. If the dissolved oxygen content of the wine starts to climb, then it needs to be removed from the tank or barrel, as this indicates that the oxygen is coming in faster than it is being consumed.
I agree all the cleaning, handling and storage benefits so my last question is the treatment of the headspace. How do you deal with that?
The tank needs to be topped up just like a barrel, I don't leave any headspace.
Studies have been done over the years, Vivas 1997, The numbers range between 10mg/L/yr for old barrels, and 20 to 45mg/L/yr for new barrels. There are some discussions regarding how much oxygen is actually going through the wood and between staves, and how much oxygen is contained in new wood. The way Flextanks are made, the oxygen transfer rate is scaled up accordingly, so theoretically a 100gal tank provides the same 2mg/l/yr as does a 60gal tank as does a 30gal tank.
In your opinion is transfer in and out of the vessel or one or the other? This may go back to the first question and if the transfer rate is sizably different and is an in and out transfer I wonder how this would impact the wine differently.
Plastic is permeable both ways, but the rate and direction depends on molecule size as well as pressure or concentration difference across the wall; you have a constant supply of oxygen on the outside of the tank and near zero concentration in the wine, therefore the oxygen moves into the wine where it is immediately consumed. If the dissolved oxygen content of the wine starts to climb, then it needs to be removed from the tank or barrel, as this indicates that the oxygen is coming in faster than it is being consumed.
I agree all the cleaning, handling and storage benefits so my last question is the treatment of the headspace. How do you deal with that?
The tank needs to be topped up just like a barrel, I don't leave any headspace.
