New winery in KS. Looking for better price structure understanding

[Bartman]

Seems like you recognize most of the salient issues. Standard 'fine wine' grapes (cab. sauv., Syrah, Merlot, Chardonnay, etc.) won't grow well in middle America, but building a market for the lesser-known but better-adapted grape varieties is a slow, arduous process. That's part of what I meant about the difference between farming and selling the produce (which is a big enough job in the first place) and the time, expense and uncertainty of making and selling wine to the public. Farming has its own challenges, expenses and uncertainty, of course, but it's a totally different 'opponent'. Mother nature is unpredictable, but certain effects reliably follow certain causes (drought necessitates watering and often leads to disease, both of which affect the final product); the wine-buying public seems to have very little rationality or predictability - what sells well at one time/year may do poorly the next, and most individuals' tastes are more fickle than even Mother Nature. Convincing the local population that they should buy your "weird" wine that they have never heard of before can be very difficult, is my understanding.

 

[fastline]

I think that is where I hate to dive into TOO strange and weird. I looked at cider here for only a moment to realize NO WAY. It sells at beer price with about 5% of the market pool even interested.

One walk into the jam and jelly store and you realize what you are up against! I would be very excited to work with a variety that does well here and do it better than anyone else BUT in talking with some serious "winers", I don't think I would gain traction with them no matter how good the product. Apparently, if the temp exceeds 90*F for 5 min, your grapes are ruined and will never make a good wine.

I need a good friend in marketing I think to figure out how to survey some Kansans in their wine preferences. No sense chasing a high end wine just to hear "it needs more sugar"..... WHAT!!!

No one in the USA can make wine, only Europe! I am always amused with the "can't do" attitudes of some. It can't be done until someone ignores them all and does it, then it CAN be done....

 

[spaniel]

I think what you are hearing is well-intended advice to know what you are getting into, nothing more.

I doubt Kansas is a center of wine snobs requiring vinifera varieties. I can tell you here in Indiana I talked with a decently successful winery here -- far bigger than you are seeking to be. They ship in and make vinifera wine with grapes from California. They also make wines with locally grown grapes. But by far the greatest volume of sales? Sickeningly sweet wines where they don't even tell you what grape variety it is.

I visited a farm winery in MI in an area not known for wines. Their whites were sickenly and artificially sweet and their reds were downright undrinkable. They seem to me making some money and have surprisingly robust local distribution. Their customers know little about wine.

Know what you're getting into, but if you make what people want you can sell it.

 

[HillPeople]

Well- you can crunch numbers on a planned winemaking business until you fall asleep at your keyboard, but it will get you no where. Plant some vines that are recommended for your zone, prune them, train them, visit local wineries, drink lots of different wines, make some wines from imported juice kits, read everything you can. Play with some labels. Do this for 4 years. If it's still appealing to you after 4 years- you've got the start of a business.
And if you think apples are susceptible to diseases and pests- just wait till you start caring for your grape vines!

 

[hvac36]

Bottom line is this 75% of the market in the USA will be semi to sweet wines. The other 25% you can break up how ever you like, so who are you going to make your money with? I know I'm gearing to my money makers and slowly convert them to my dry reds and white over time...

 

[Midwest Vintner]

I need a good friend in marketing I think to figure out how to survey some Kansans in their wine preferences. No sense chasing a high end wine just to hear "it needs more sugar"..... WHAT!!!

No one in the USA can make wine, only Europe! I am always amused with the "can't do" attitudes of some. It can't be done until someone ignores them all and does it, then it CAN be done....

#1. We split our first years blueberry into 2 tanks and bottle separately. One almost dry 1.001 and the other about 1.012 (what i would call semi-sweet). It had higher tannic properties because it was fermented on the whole berry (not juice) and is very close to a red wine in taste. when dry. Let people taste both for 3 months and sold the sweet 3 to 1 at $12 a bottle each. Now, only the dry drinkers buy the blueberry as the semisweet sold out long ago!

#2. Whoever says that Europe makes better wine has no clue about wine. It is like saying European cars are the best cars in the world. It would be true if that means you like paying more for less. Might want to watch the movie, "Bottle Shock."

 

[JohnT]

I disagree with hill people, forget about kits. You need to perfect your winemaking skills against fresh grapes.

HVAC - This simply must be different from region to region and I find it hard to believe that 75% of domestic wines are sweet.

When I go into any wine shop around my area, you would have to search long and hard for any sweet wines. Over half of each store around me is dedicated to dry reds.

Think of what is comming out of Napa.. Cabernet, merlot, zinfandel (red), Malbac, Chardonnay.... These seem to be the majority of wines from california and are all dry.

Could you share your source of info. It is not that I doubt you, it is that I am shocked by this statistic.

Also, this is the point where I need to say that individual tastes differ and are in no way better than any other taste. Some like sweet wines, some like welches or concord, but I do not. This is just me, the resident "Wine Snob".

 

[seth8530]

John,

I am not sure if I would say as much as 75% of wine sells are sweet, but from the family winery I can tell you that sweet wine sells much better than semisweet or dry.. Atleast in our local..

However, that does not mean one should not follow passion and make excellently balanced and structured dry wines. It is simply something that will need to get introduced to the population with much effort.

 

[spaniel]

Also, this is the point where I need to say that individual tastes differ and are in no way better than any other taste. Some like sweet wines, some like welches or concord, but I do not. This is just me, the resident "Wine Snob".

Since it was I that used the term "wine snob", I want to clarify that its use was in the most affectionate manner; I hope no one took offense to that. Perhaps a better term would be "people that have a lot of experience tasting and enjoying wines". My experience is that people new to wine will prefer sweet wines. Over time as their tastes develop they migrate to drier and drier wines and come to appreciate the complexities. I routinely see wine tasting rooms starting people who admit little experience tasting wines on their sweeter stuff, and move them to drier samples until they hit that individual person's "sweet spot".

So it does not surprise me that California may sell a ton of dry wines; Californians in general have much greater exposure to wine than, say, the Midwest. Locally here in Indiana I see the opposite and the sales data I was given correlates with those observations.

 

[GreginND]

My research in the Midwest (Mi, OH, IN, WI, MN, ND, SD, IA, MO, NE, MT) confirms that about 75% of tasters in winery tasting rooms prefer sweeter wines. Yes, most produce dry wines as well but my guess is that most of that is sold through other outlets. I've talked with a fair number of wineries about this.

 

[JohnT]

Since it was I that used the term "wine snob", I want to clarify that its use was in the most affectionate manner; I hope no one took offense to that. Perhaps a better term would be "people that have a lot of experience tasting and enjoying wines". My experience is that people new to wine will prefer sweet wines. Over time as their tastes develop they migrate to drier and drier wines and come to appreciate the complexities. I routinely see wine tasting rooms starting people who admit little experience tasting wines on their sweeter stuff, and move them to drier samples until they hit that individual person's "sweet spot".

So it does not surprise me that California may sell a ton of dry wines; Californians in general have much greater exposure to wine than, say, the Midwest. Locally here in Indiana I see the opposite and the sales data I was given correlates with those observations.

Spaniel....

I have been called a wine snob for years (on this site). It has been a running gag ever since. I actually like the title.

believe me, there was NO offense taken. BTW, i have been meaning to tell you that I am a big fan of spaniels.. Here is a rather poor picture of Duke (that black blob to the left) and Tango (standing)..

 

[hvac36]

With all the winery's my wife and I have visited thru out the years their list is at least 75% semi to sweet wines this is east coast. Not many Chardonnay or Merlots list any more. Ask 1 winery why they don't have any and they said no call for it Our market is the semi to sweet market any more..

 

[fastline]

Correct me if I am wrong but you still need a quality grape for semis anyway? Are you just saying that trying to get the European standard level of taste probably is not worth chasing since most people don't know quality when they taste it?

Are these wineries seriously just sugaring up their post fermented products? I guess this could be why American wineries are not all that jazzed up about finding the perfect grape for the area. I mean, if people don't care to drink it, why would someone work hard to offer it?

Come to think of it, I believe my mother "loves" The house Olive Garden wine because it has the right amount of sweetness. IIRC, they have a private label winery in Italy doing their wines? That should speak volumes if a large "Italian" eatery is selling the sweetness.

 

[salcoco]

Fastline I think you are focusing on the wrong thing 1. you do not need vinifera grapes to make good wine 2. a balanced wine can be defined as semi sweet or dry.3. customers want a sweeter wine.
Try this business plan -Make wine from fruits, local grown grapes and CA grapes or juice. Make the fruit wines sweet. the local grape wine balanced and the CA grapes balanced. You are right, 30% of your production must be grown in Kansas for a farm winery. the fruit wines can fit that percentage. You can make blends with the local grapes give them a special name and slightly sweeten to sell. leave some local grapes wines balanced along with the balanced CA grape wines. Make very few high tannin wines, which I would define as dry as their will only be about 1% or less of your market. A good wine still needs to be made before anyone will buy it, sweet or balanced. The definition of sweet must come to mind. I would sell wine that was balanced and some thought it was sweet. If the tannin levels are correct the wine will be pleasant.
I firmly believe you must visit some wineries, taste the wine and find out what sweet , balanced and dry really mean. go to some conferences and talk with grape growers and wineries, they will tell you what works. the conference will have experts presenting information as well.
Did you visit the Kansas Grape Growers and Wineries web page?

Sign up for their conference in Topeka in January. Talk to those "experts" that have done what you want to do.

 

[fastline]

Good advice Sal. No, I have not had a chance to soak up the resources offered as of yet but I work with KSU on some other ag ventures so I know the drill.

I appreciate the thoughts on the venture. However, I do not intend to reach beyond personally grown wines. I think this is mostly an agriculture venture so buying other ag products is sort of defeating. However, I suppose if it works out, I will do what I must to provide product but I do not anticipate any runaway market share. I do plan to grow a few varieties to test with and build on that experience. I am sure I won't have a super extensive product line but....

One of the concerns I have in a vineyard is time in the field since this is 100% manual production other than possible spraying and such. The thought if harvesting 4T of grapes sounds daunting. However, due to the time factor for maturity, I will have to plant enough, try it, if it does not work out, I am sure I can still sell the grapes as a pick your own until I subsidize the costs and roll it over. I am really not that concerned though. I am not willing to plant 10 acres on this whim though. There is some steep competition in this business.

 

[spaniel]

Spaniel....

I have been called a wine snob for years (on this site). It has been a running gag ever since. I actually like the title.

believe me, there was NO offense taken. BTW, i have been meaning to tell you that I am a big fan of spaniels.. Here is a rather poor picture of Duke (that black blob to the left) and Tango (standing)..

Nice to see you have good taste in wine AND dogs.

 

[JohnT]

Folks, I am shocked by this statistic. I have gone through (extensively) virginia, georgia, deleware, NJ, New York State, snd really have not seen a very popular trend toward sweet/semi sweet. One thing that I was told is that they sell well because they have a lower price. This is due to the shorter turn-around and no need for barrel aging.

One of the best sellers in the fingerlakes region, for example, is dry reisling (usually a semi-sweet). The trend toward sweet wines simply surprises me.

Perhaps there are well selling sweet wines, but I am so focused on dry I never noticed?

 

[HillPeople]

JohnT-"I disagree with hill people, forget about kits. You need to perfect your winemaking skills against fresh grapes. "

I agree with your disagreement John. I only added that because it's a cheap way to actually start making some wine and familiarizing yourself with the process while you're watching your grapes grow. I agree that it would be better to just go to a local vineyard and buy some fresh grapes, crush 'em up and make a batch. Just what I'm getting ready to do do this weekend with some Frontenacs grown here in our town.

I have 100 2 yr. vines and 100 1 yr. vines, so I won't have any of my own grapes until next fall. We will be making more dry hard cider this year, bottling this spring's dandelion wine, fermenting the Frontenacs and even doing an Italian kit.

The point I was making is that business plans are fine, but they don't hold a candle to actually planting and caring for some vines and drinking and making wine. That's really the only way to tell if it interests you enough to keep putting time, energy and money into it.

I also am amazed by sweet wines outselling dry. I grew up in the upper Midwest and drank beer and scotch and wine was off the radar. Semi-sweet Reisling is about as sweet as I can tolerate, and because of that personal preference for bone dry wines, that's all I will be making- market be damned. Up here in northern New England I don't see any preference for sweet wines at all. Quite the opposite.

 

[seth8530]

Perhaps it is possible that the northeast and the California area in general have drier taste in wine than most other places?

 

[salcoco]

I may be the only one here arguing this point but back to my definitions. What is sweet wine? what is perceived to be sweet or what is 5% residual sugar. to wine makers the residual sugar is the answer. to a customer it is what he perceives. A balance wine(and I will persist in this definition) is on where the acid/fruit/alcohol/tannin are in balance. Give this to ten customers, all will enjoy it, you will get a myriad of which think it is sweet, semi-sweet or dry. The only one who really knows the definitions are experienced wine makers and drinkers. the bottom line is how many buy the wine. Most will buy it. Do not get me wrong, you will have to have some wine that is sweet, true to our definition of 5-10% residual sugar for some of your customers. Keep making good wine, balanced again and your customers will stay true and the wine maker will be also true to his craft.
Back to fast line, do at least another year of research before you even think of starting a business plan. You do not have enough data to compile one.