Oxygenate during bulk aging

[dcbrown73]

So, I've been doing a lot of winemaking reading. Both forums and in books.

I recently read a big benefit of aging in a oak barrel is that it allows just enough oxygen into the barrel for proper oxygenating the wine during the bulk aging process.

In a glass carboy with airlock. I'm guessing that does not happen. The only way I would think to get oxygen to the wine would be popping off the airlock briefly. (though I have no idea how much that would provide (or needed) or how often it would need to be done if that's what it needs) I've also seen where some people don't rack during the bulk aging stage unless they believe it needs it. That would suggest (by ignorant deductive reasoning) that their bulk aging provides no oxygenating of the wine except when it was first put into the carboy.

So, how do you properly oxygenate wine bulk aging in a carboy?

 

[jswordy]

DELETED

Somehow I knew there was a reason I quit posting to the winemaking sections of this forum.

 

[dcbrown73]

You do NOT oxygenate the wine in bulk aging. The wine is degassed and then left OUT of the presence of oxygen in bulk aging by an airlock or bung, according to your preference and degree of certainty that it has stopped active fermentation.

Oxygen is not a friend of the wine at this stage. Actually, oxygen is only a friend of wine during the early first stage of fermentation, when the yeast are in aerobic propagation. Once they go into anaerobic division, oxygen is an enemy. So once you put it under airlock, oxygen is not a friend anymore.

Oxygenating a wine after fermentation has substantially ended or has ended will result in a "turned" wine, one way or another. Oxidated. If you do not oxidate the wine right away, it will result in a substantially shortened shelf life along the way as it is stored.

Yes, chemicals can help guard against this but only if you use proper winemaking techniques.

In a proper barrel, the amount of oxygen transfer is incredibly small. I'm not buying what you wrote in the way you wrote it.

Well, JohnT wrote this article on oaking that suggest some oxygen definitely helps the wine.

In the book "Creating World Class Red Wine", I read this and a few other things that refer to oxygen helping build structure within the wine. Especially as it pertains to tannins.

We are concerned with managing tannins progression over time, as phenols rearrange themselves into colloids and polymers during gradual exposure to oxygen.

The role oxygen plays in the evolution of a wine is very important. The extensive work with oxygen done by Dr. Vern Singleton at UC Davis years ago has yet to be fully digested and implemented by the enological community. Singleton illustrated oxygen's power to elaborate and refine structure.

Of course, I know that lots of oxygen will cause oxidize and turn to vinegar and turn brown. I'm just trying to understand the processes and nuances.

 

[Johnd]

So the answer to your question is that, yes, micro-oxygenation does take place during barrel aging, and as long as the time in the barrel is controlled based upon it's size, the micro-oxygenation is beneficial. Too long, and your wine can indeed become oxidized.

Concentration by evaporation and oak flavoring also occur in barrel aging, but that wasn't your question.

No micro-oxygenation takes place in a carboy with a solid bung or airlock. I do not believe that opening your carboy will achieve what a barrel does in terms of micro-oxygenation, nor have I read or heard of anyone doing it successfully.

I don't know what "proper oxygenating of a wine in a carboy" is exactly, but if you want the micro-oxygenation benefit imparted by barrel aging, the barrel is the best way that I know of to obtain that benefit.

 

[ibglowin]

Stavin has built a nifty "OxBox" for wineries that do not wish to use barrels but want to try and get the best of both worlds through technology and oak adjuncts.

 

[dcbrown73]

So the answer to your question is that, yes, micro-oxygenation does take place during barrel aging, and as long as the time in the barrel is controlled based upon it's size, the micro-oxygenation is beneficial. Too long, and your wine can indeed become oxidized.

Concentration by evaporation and oak flavoring also occur in barrel aging, but that wasn't your question.

No micro-oxygenation takes place in a carboy with a solid bung or airlock. I do not believe that opening your carboy will achieve what a barrel does in terms of micro-oxygenation, nor have I read or heard of anyone doing it successfully.

I don't know what "proper oxygenating of a wine in a carboy" is exactly, but if you want the micro-oxygenation benefit imparted by barrel aging, the barrel is the best way that I know of to obtain that benefit.

Thank you. I figured as much, I just wasn't sure if there was something I wasn't aware of for micro-oxygenation in a carboy.

 

[dcbrown73]

Stavin has built a nifty "OxBox" for wineries that do not wish to use barrels but want to try and get the best of both worlds through technology and oak adjuncts.

That's pretty cool. I love engineering.

 

[PhilDarby]

@ dcbrown73 The difference between aging in a barrel and aging in an air tight container (eg) a carboy is that, as, you have already figured a carboy or wine fermenter is usually airtight, meaning no oxygen transfer occurs, there isn't really much that you can do about that in effect and taking the airlock off repeatedly to allow air to enter, almost certainly wont improve the wine and may introduce spoilage organisms.

Wine which is aged in a barrel has a different effect, because, small amounts of it evaporate off, through the sides of the barrel, which is semi permeable, its a relatively small amount, but, as well as adding flavours from the oak the evaporation also, slightly thickens the wine inside and in effect slightly concentrates the flavour, normal wine barrels are generally made as air tight as is possible and as a rule some evaporation of the wine occurs in storage, but, very little in the way of oxygen would normally enter.

There are exceptions to this though and Im going to take a wild guess and ask if you where reading about port or sherry type drinks ? because they are generally aged differently to normal wines, Spanish sherry is produced using a solera system, which, basically rotates the wines, subsequently they get blended. In a solera system the sherry being aged is deliberately exposed to air and the barrels aren't filled up to the top, the reason this is done is to encourage the growth of flor, which is basically a yeast growth, it is I think the same yeast used in fermentation, when the flor covers the wine surface it will also block out a lot of oxygen, but, the dark colour in some Spanish sherry is a result of oxidisation and flor growth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flor

 

[dcbrown73]

@ dcbrown73 The difference between aging in a barrel and aging in an air tight container (eg) a carboy is that, as, you have already figured a carboy or wine fermenter is usually airtight, meaning no oxygen transfer occurs, there isn't really much that you can do about that in effect and taking the airlock off repeatedly to allow air to enter, almost certainly wont improve the wine and may introduce spoilage organisms.

Wine which is aged in a barrel has a different effect, because, small amounts of it evaporate off, through the sides of the barrel, which is semi permeable, its a relatively small amount, but, as well as adding flavours from the oak the evaporation also, slightly thickens the wine inside and in effect slightly concentrates the flavour, normal wine barrels are generally made as air tight as is possible and as a rule some evaporation of the wine occurs in storage, but, very little in the way of oxygen would normally enter.

There are exceptions to this though and Im going to take a wild guess and ask if you where reading about port or sherry type drinks ? because they are generally aged differently to normal wines, Spanish sherry is produced using a solera system, which, basically rotates the wines, subsequently they get blended. In a solera system the sherry being aged is deliberately exposed to air and the barrels aren't filled up to the top, the reason this is done is to encourage the growth of flor, which is basically a yeast growth, it is I think the same yeast used in fermentation, when the flor covers the wine surface it will also block out a lot of oxygen, but, the dark colour in some Spanish sherry is a result of oxidisation and flor growth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flor

Thank you for that. Great information.

I wasn't reading about sherry or ports. I've got my first wine kit going and I just bought some more, but I'm trying to learn the processes and nuances of making great wine. (I'm an engineer, I have a need to understand what I'm doing not just follow directions)

I'm just looking forward to being able to make my own wine creation vs just following a pre-built model with supplied ingredient.

I've got to say, I find reading these books and listening to you guys very fascinating. Almost as fascinating as tasting the differences in wines of the same type!

 

[Johnd]

Thank you. I figured as much, I just wasn't sure if there was something I wasn't aware of for micro-oxygenation in a carboy.

And there you have it, I've never heard of the ox box. Apparently, there is a way. Wonder how it's priced.....

 

[ibglowin]

I am waiting for @NorCal to make one for small amateur use!

 

[NorCal]

I am waiting for @NorCal to make one for small amateur use!

Looks above my pay grade.

 

[sour_grapes]

(I'm an engineer, I have a need to understand what I'm doing not just follow directions)

You realize you are playing against stereotype here, right?

 

[dcbrown73]

You realize you are playing against stereotype here, right?

Say that again? I can only hear in mono.

 

[Boatboy24]

I'm just looking forward to being able to make my own wine creation vs just following a pre-built model with supplied ingredient.

Yep, you've definitely got the fever.

Nothing wrong with kit wines at all - many are quite good. I equate it to making brownies with ingredients you purchase in a box from the grocery store vs. starting from scratch.

 

[dcbrown73]

Yep, you've definitely got the fever.

Nothing wrong with kit wines at all - many are quite good. I equate it to making brownies with ingredients you purchase in a box from the grocery store vs. starting from scratch.

Ever made homemade spaghetti sauce with only fresh ingredients? Even my worst sauce was better than anything I've eaten out of a can/jar. I'm pretty sure that won't be the case for my wine, but I'm going to make a run at it. I'm all for bucking the status quo.

 

[Boatboy24]

Ever made homemade spaghetti sauce with only fresh ingredients? Even my worst sauce was better than anything I've eaten out of a can/jar. I'm pretty sure that won't be the case for my wine, but I'm going to make a run at it. I'm all for bucking the status quo.

Well, I do use canned tomatoes.

 

[dcbrown73]

Well, I do use canned tomatoes.

Tomato wine? Interesting concept!

I've used canned tomatoes too, though I do find fresh ones definitely make a difference. When I make more southwestern dishes (chili, tortilla soup, etc. I'm a transplant Texan) Ro-Tel (from a can) is way better than anything I can produce on my own. So, it's always used.

 

[Treeman]

?......No micro-oxygenation takes place in a carboy with a solid bung or airlock. I do not believe that opening your carboy will achieve what a barrel does in terms of micro-oxygenation, nor have I read or heard of anyone doing it successfully.



I don't know what "proper oxygenating of a wine in a carboy" is exactly, but if you want the micro-oxygenation benefit imparted by barrel aging, the barrel is the best way that I know of to obtain that benefit.

Carboy with an airlock does allow oxygen into your wine and is the best way in my opinion to bulk age reds in glass that need some O2. It's not mico-oxygenation but better than a solid bung.

Until a small volume (5-6 gal) O2 permeable plastic is available, wood barrels are probably the best way for a home wine maker to micro-oxygenate wine.

 

[bkisel]

Carboy with an airlock does allow oxygen into your wine and is the best way in my opinion to bulk age reds in glass that need some O2. It's not mico-oxygenation but better than a solid bung.

Until a small volume (5-6 gal) O2 permeable plastic is available, wood barrels are probably the best way for a home wine maker to micro-oxygenate wine.

Wish I could find out more about how gas permeable the "new" Saran wrap is with respect to a 21L oak barrel. The old Saran wrap, using a different plastic, was not permeable. For the last 2 years I've been using Saran wrap in place of a 3 piece airlock or solid bung. I've had no issues using Saran wrap but the most I bulk age is three months. Don't know if I get more or less O2 as compared to when I used an airlock.