"Pasteur Red" in the 2nd day

[hector]

Hi there !

I already know that fermentation does not have any good smell at all .

Now , my red wine Batch (2 Gallons) is on its way for the second day and

I used "Pasteur Red" to do the Job for me . One of the characteristics of this

Strain is low level of H2S production , But today I can smell it to some extent .

Although , I've added 2 teaspoons of Nutrient just before adding the yeast to the Must .

It's fermenting now at 72F .

Should I add some Nutrient again ?

Hector

 

[robie]

I don't know which nutrient you are using, but 2 teaspoons seems like a lot for 2 gallons, but again, I don't know what you are using.

If this is only the "start" of your second day, it is too soon to add more.

You should go by the instruction that came with the nutrient and the instructions for your wine.

Sounds like what you are smelling is pretty normal. You will get a little of that smell (H2S) as a natural by-product of many fermentations.

Hector, you are way too nervous about this whole process. (You remind me of "me", when I first started. ) Wine making is pretty forgiving and will very likely go just fine; just take it easy and follow the instructions.

But, yes, let us know if the smell get more intense.

You will be fine. Just have a glass of wine or a cold one, relax.

 

[hector]

I don't know which nutrient you are using, but 2 teaspoons seems like a lot for 2 gallons, but again, I don't know what you are using.
Hector, you are way too nervous about this whole process. (You remind me of "me", when I first started. ) But, yes, let us know if the smell get more intense.

Thanks Robie !

You're completely right . I'm nervous because I lost one Batch last year which was contaminated and

emitted too much H2S , although I had cleaned and sanitized everything carefully .

The Instruction of the Nutrient says : 1 level teaspoon per Gallon

It smells today relatively sharp which was not so yesterday . I think that could be because of Alcohol .

I hope this Batch will come out fine , because I tried very hard to have everything under control as well as

cleaning and sanitizing .

Hector

 

[robie]

I understand. If you feed the yeast when instructions say to, you should be fine.

Also, give it a good, soft stir everyday until it reaches about 1.010. Stir in any foam that has formed on top. Make sure you seal it under an air lock when your instructions say to do so.

H2S (rotten egg smell) is generally cause by the yeast not having enough nutrients. If they don't have enough, they give off an enzyme that turns the dead yeast into a nutrient. That is when you can get the H2S.

I don't know what all happened to your first batch, but you know, getting H2S by itself is not a good reason to dump a batch. It many times can be fixed.

Now you are on a forum where you can get some help.

 

[hector]

I understand. If you feed the yeast when instructions say to, you should be fine.

Also, give it a good, soft stir everyday until it reaches about 1.010. Stir in any foam that has formed on top. Make sure you seal it under an air lock when your instructions say to do so.

fortunately , it's fine and H2S is just a little but alcohol smell is getting sharper everyday .

I press down the Cap every 6 Hours and there is no foam on top .

I think there is no need to use an Airlock as long as it's fermenting vigorously and lots of

CO2 is emitted in the Primary and the Oxygen uptake is negligible .

Hector

 

[hector]

Hi ,

I'm writing in this Thread again because I STILL have the old Problem with my batches . The only difference is that I have more experience now . For example , I used to add DAP as the Nutrient before pitching , then I thought it's better to add it after formation of the Cap , but in all cases it led to strong emission of H2S and Ethyl Acetate on the 2nd day of fermentation .

I just started a red batch two days ago and what I did is as follows :

1- After buying the red Grapes , they are washed , de-stemmed and freezed .

2- I took the Grapes out of the Freezer a few months later and let them thaw in Buckets .

3 - I crushed them and measured the Volume of the Must and also measured the S.G. which was 1.084 . I didn't add any Sugar .

4 - I added 50 ppm of SO2 based on the total Volume of the Must and regardless of the pH .

5- 12 Hours later I added Pectinase .

6- 10 Hours later , measured the pH and it was 2.8 . So , I brought it up to 3.4 by adding Calcium Carbonate .

7- Re-hydrated the yeast ( Pasteur Red ) and pitched .

8- The Cap was formed 10 Hours later , then I crushed 1/4 of a "Brewers Yeast" tablet as the Nutrient and dispersed it in a little of Water ( which was boiled and cooled ) and added it to the Must .

Now , the same story on the 2nd day of fermentation . I smelled H2S and I thought that 1/4 of the tablet was not enough . Therefore , I added another 1/4 of the tablet and mixed well , but it did not cure it and like previous batches , it's emitting Ethyl Acetate .

To be honest , I'm totally fed up

What is wrong with my batches ?!

Hector

 

[DoctorCAD]

Nothing is wrong...

Let it go, a little smell is nothing to worry about.

And how do you know it is creating H2S and ethyl acetate? Do you have a lab analyzing it?

 

[JohnT]

Hector,

Who in the world told you that Pasteur Red H2S resistant????

Quite the opposite is true. Pasteur Red is quite (overly) vulnerable to H2S.
IMHO, Pasteur Red SUCKS!

I would advise you to go with a better quality of yeast. How about giving Lalvin RC 212? a try?


H2S should not be much of a problem if you deal with it early. Here is my advice...

1) Change the yeast you use!

2) Rack your wine sooner. Once you have a defined layer of yeast at the bottom of your jug, rack it (even if you are actively fermenting).

3) Add your nutrient in 3 stages. I would add 1/2 before you pitch your yeast, 1/4 on day 2, and 1/4 on day 4 or 5.


A little bit about H2S..

In all situations, the actual amount you have will be surprisingly minute. Just 2 or 3 ppm of H2S will put you on your back. With this in mind, most of the time it takes very little to rid yourself of it. Try the following..

If you do the above and you still have H2S, try a splash racking. Many times simple aeration will greatly improve your wine.

Toss a couple of scrubbed pennies into it and wait a day or so.. Copper bonds with H2S and form a inert compound that will settle out of your wine.

If that does not help, try treating with a little copper sulfate. This is a much more efficient method of delivering copper to your wine. A little copper sulfate goes a long way and can be poisonous in high concentrations. I recommend that you do a bench trial to determine the amount your need.

If using copper sulfate bothers you, I would recommend a product call REDULESS. This works like a miracle and is far safer to use than copper sulfate.

 

[hector]

And how do you know it is creating H2S and ethyl acetate? Do you have a lab analyzing it?

It's not a little smell . It's emitting strongly .

I'm familiar with these off-flavors , because I studied Chemistry .

H2S--> The rotten egg Odor

Ethyl Acetate--> The Nail Polish Remover Odor ( sharp )

These two Odors , if not cured , make the wine undrinkable .

Hector

 

[hector]

Who in the world told you that Pasteur Red H2S resistant????

Quite the opposite is true. Pasteur Red is quite (overly) vulnerable to H2S.
IMHO, Pasteur Red SUCKS!...

I think what you said is true about "Montrachet" .

Among the Characteristics of "Pasteur Red" is the low production of H2S and VA , as described by "Fermentis" .

Besides , I also used once "Cote De Blancs" for making red Plum wine and that led to this Problem , too .

So , I think the main Cause is something other than the yeast strain .

Are you sure that I can add Nutrient before pitching ?

I've read in some Articles that by adding the Nutrient before pitching , you are actually feeding the Bacteria !

Once I read a thread in this Forum in which a woman said that she mixed all the ingredients at the same time ( without using SO2 and without Sanitation ) and that worked for her and she made a wine with no Problem !

That made me CRAZY , as I always clean and sanitize everything carefully but what I have at the End is H2S and Ethyl Acetate .

Hector

 

[Turock]

hector--I'm not sure why you're using brewer's yeast instead of nutrient. The basic thing in nutrient that yeast needs is nitrogen and I don't think brewer's yeast contains nitrogen. The grapes you're using are probably very low on YAN to begin with--so their nitrogen needs are even more extreme.

Now the proper way to balance nitogen needs is to have organic and inorganic sources of nitrogen available to the must. However, for many years, we used DAP nutrient only--which a good source of nitrogen but it's inorganic. And we are also using high acid grapes--the native grapes here which are concord and Niagara. We've never had issues with these grapes. We've been fermenting them for 25 years and never had a H2S issue.

So here's how we go about it. On the first day--after you've crushed--get a dose of meta in there along with a good dose of pectic enzyme. The enzyme will aid the fruit breakdown, making your PH readings somewhat more accurate because you have some of the broken down pulp in the PH sample. Then set your brix and pitch the yeast. After the lag phase, when you see the yeast taking off, get your first dose of nutrient in there. What you should do is take the entire dose of nutrient and split in half if using DAP. Pitch the first half at end of lag phase and the second dose just before the 50% dry stage. If using Fermaid K, pitch the last dose at 1/3 sugar depletion.

Go to the Scott Lab website or the Lallemand website and read on nutirent--then you'll really understand what it is you're trying to do. But step-feeding nutrient will always give you good results because you're keeping the yeast from being stressed due to low nitrogen levels.

If you encounter H2S and your ferment is more than at the 50% dry stage, get a dose of DAP in it right away. If you're past the 50% dry stage, the best treatment is Reduless because if you ignore the H2S odor, it will begin to become a FLAVOR in the wine because you're forming mercaptans. And mercaptans are very hard to deal with in a wine. So to sum up--you need to know the grapes you're working with. If they are a low YAN fruit, you need to get the nitrogen levels up. The lowest nitrogen level you can have and still have a successful ferment is about 140mg/liter and the normal range is between 225 and 275 mg/L. Which means you really need to use nutrients with significant levels of nitrogen. Low level YAN musts, or musts where you have unknown YAN should get 1/2 addition of Fermaid K when the yeast establishes itself and 2nd dose at 25% depletion of sugar. Then at 1/3 depletion add a partial dose of DAP nutrient depending on the speed and temp of the ferment. Between the DAP and Fermaid K, you have inorganic and organic nitrogen. Not enough DAP later in the ferment CAN cause H2S or the ferment not finishing.

You also need to know the requirements of the yeast you're using. Some yeast needs very good nutrient management or else it creates a boatload of H2S when stressed. Always step-feed nutrient, no matter WHAT you're fermenting.

 

[JohnT]

I think what you said is true about "Montrachet" .

Among the Characteristics of "Pasteur Red" is the low production of H2S and VA , as described by "Fermentis" .

Besides , I also used once "Cote De Blancs" for making red Plum wine and that led to this Problem , too .

So , I think the main Cause is something other than the yeast strain .

Are you sure that I can add Nutrient before pitching ?

I've read in some Articles that by adding the Nutrient before pitching , you are actually feeding the Bacteria !

Once I read a thread in this Forum in which a woman said that she mixed all the ingredients at the same time ( without using SO2 and without Sanitation ) and that worked for her and she made a wine with no Problem !

That made me CRAZY , as I always clean and sanitize everything carefully but what I have at the End is H2S and Ethyl Acetate .

Hector

If you apply a proper dose of pretreatment k-meta, then the bacteria is stunned. I apply the yeast nutrient after the k-meta dose, but before I pitch my yeast.


Pasteur red is much more prone to H2S production than RC 212...

The RC 212 is a low-foaming moderate-speed fermenter with an optimum fermentation temperature ranging from 20° to 30°C (68° to 86°F). A very low producer of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) and sulfur dioxide (SO2), the RC 212 shows good alcohol tolerance to 16%.

I would still recommend that you change your yeast.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Again...How do you know that H2S and ethyl acetate are being formed? Strictly by smell??? Not really a viable test for anyone that studied chemistry as you state you did.

Remember, you are keeping a batch of rotting fruit in a jar. Thats all you are doing. The method and systems that we use keeps the rotting in check, but it is still rotting fruit. It smells...NO BIG DEAL!

 

[hector]

hector--I'm not sure why you're using brewer's yeast instead of nutrient. The basic thing in nutrient that yeast needs is nitrogen and I don't think brewer's yeast contains nitrogen.


After the lag phase, when you see the yeast taking off, get your first dose of nutrient in there. What you should do is take the entire dose of nutrient and split in half if using DAP. Pitch the first half at end of lag phase and the second dose just before the 50% dry stage.


If you encounter H2S and your ferment is more than at the 50% dry stage, get a dose of DAP in it right away.

You also need to know the requirements of the yeast you're using. Some yeast needs very good nutrient management or else it creates a boatload of H2S when stressed. Always step-feed nutrient, no matter WHAT you're fermenting.

Fermaid K is not available to me now and I use "Brewers Yeast" instead of that . Some Home winemakers use Multivitamin tablets and they are satisfied with it .

Brewers Yeast is a natural source of B Group vitamins and contains a range of amino acids ( Organic N ) , minerals , trace elements and yeast hulls .

I used to add DAP after formation of the Cap , but I read in a sticky thread in this Forum that we should not do that and the proper time to add DAP is at the beginning of the Stationary phase (after 1/3 sugar depletion ) . So , I added this time only 1/4 of Brewers Yeast tablet after formation of the Cap and I was waiting for 8-10 Brix drops in order to add DAP then .

But , I faced the same old Problem on the 2nd day .

Hector

 

[Turock]

hector--no,no,no. What you are failing to understand is that nitrogen is far more important. And the proper way to add DAP is the first 1/2 of the dose just as the yeast is taking off--second dose at 50% dry stage. I would never think that any of us would recommend the first nutrient at 1/3 sugar depletion--I'm sure you misread that because those instructions are for the last dose of Fermaid K. EVERY white paper states:"First nutrient dose at end of lag phase."

I'm telling ya--your whole problem is your nutrient regime. But if you're insistant on ignoring the information, there's nothing more I can do to help you. The correct info is right here in front of you--I suggest you reread my reply again because if you start following the correct instruction--and do some research on nutrient--your problems with your ferments will be over. Micro-nutrient vitamins are helpful to a ferment---but if you're not adding nitrogen, then you'll always have problems because low YAN ferments always have one of two things happen, and sometimes both---lots of H2S or ferments that won't finish. It's not necessary to use Fermaid K--get some DAP nutrient and you'll have no problems. Follow my instructions above when using it.

 

[JohnT]

I could not agree more with turock!

Proper yeast nutrient is by far one of the most important tasks in the production of good wine.

I would add, as I have said many times on this post, you can further your chances of success by additionally switching to a more H2S resistant yeast strain.

'nough said....

 

[hector]

hector--no,no,no. What you are failing to understand is that nitrogen is far more important. And the proper way to add DAP is the first 1/2 of the dose just as the yeast is taking off--second dose at 50% dry stage.

I appreciate your Help dear Turock !

I already did exactly what you're suggesting by my previous batches and they all emitted H2S on the 2nd day . I even added a little of DAP to see if it can cure it , but it had no positive effect .

Please take a look at this Thread :

http://www.winemakingtalk.com/forum/f86/yeast-nutrients-39655/

Deezil said that DAP should not be added after formation of the Cap , otherwise H2S will be emitted .

Hector

 

[Turock]

Well, I didn't read that there. I've used PLENTY of DAP in my 25 years of winemaking and I stand by what I told you above. The only reason you don't want to use more DAP after the 50% dry stage is because the yeast can no longer utilize the nitrogen because of alcohol production and it makes a good environment for spoilage.

You might have used the DAP too late. I repeat----first half of the dose at end of lag phase,second dose at 50% dry stage. It's just that simple. Be sure you consider the FULL dose of nutrient depending on the volume you're working with and divide it in half. I don't care how many vitamins you give a wine---if you're not giving it nitrogen at sufficient levels, you're gonna have trouble.