Persimmon wine variations

[kfrinkle]

So fermentation is still going on, the cap is getting smaller and more manageable. Temps still down near 60F. I am unable to get a SG reading due to the thickness and will just wing it on when to rack to secondary. It has been seven days thus far, will give it at leat a few more days, maybe even a week. The cap on this stuff really seals off the must from the rest of the world well inbetween break ups. Also, I only had a SLIGHTLY off smell for about half a day. It now smells almost lije really ripe mangoes, very interesting. I think lower temps are the way to go, specially with champagne yeast. I am going to add more sugar today, hoping that more alcoho, will help break the sludge down more.

 

[kfrinkle]

So, I racked off on Tuesday. I will have to admit, I was HORRIBLY disappointed. I had started with approximately 15 gallons of whole persimmons, 10+ gallons of water plus a decent amount of sugar. I started transferring from my stainless steel beast and it was like pushing sludge through a straw. Luckily my hose had a reasonable diameter and I was able to make it happen. However, the sad part was that I ended up with 10 gallons spread across two 6 gallon carboys. I had expected to get three 6 gallon carboys completely topped off. Furthermore, I had hoped that the press piston on my Blichmann Wineeasy would help press extra liquid out of the remaining sludge. It did not, that persimmon sludge was so incompressible that it was not worth me getting the press piston out to press it in the first place. I scooped out three 5 gallon buckets of sludge from the bottom of my primary. So in essence, the amount of water I put in is about the amount of liquid I get out.

So now my two 6 gallon carboys are sitting in the garage, airlocks burping like mad, and I think I will be lucky if I get 5 gallons free and clear from those two together due to sediment buildup. *sigh*

Moral here for me is that I will be doing persimmon in small batches from now on, and I will be putting them through a rice strainer to get just the pulp before I start a batch. Luckily, I have another 5 gallons at least, stored in my freezer and I think I can get maybe two more batches started with what I have.

 

[Stressbaby]

I feel your pain.

I tried steam juicing 5# of persimmons last weekend - a waste of time. I flogged those persimmons for 2 hours and ended up with 3 cups of purple juice. I didn't get an SG on it but the juice was just barely sweet and the persimmon character was gone.

 

[Gowers Choice]

I have six 5 gallon batches of persimmon going now, and from the looks of them I don't expect any more than 15-17 gallons of wine to bottle. But that is the nature of the beast when it comes to persimmons, but still worth it, one of my favorites.

 

[ChrisTom]

Making my first batch of wine ever a persimmon wine. (not new to brewing, just winemaking) The varietal I believe is the Hachiya. I have a very large and old persimmon tree in my backyard and wanted to try something different with the persimmons this winter. The persimmons this year were unbelievable! Two persimmons = 1#! I skinned, mashed, and removed the seeds although my persimmons are practically seedless. My persimmons are also nearly a jelly consistency when ripe.

I used Jack Keller's recipe (x 5) straight except for having used D47. On day 6 (now) the head has settled down a little but since I did not use a mesh sack I was unable to get a good initial SG which is definitely bothersome. I'm a little concerned that the recipe calls for too much sugar given that my persimmons are incredibly sweet when ripe. The good news is that I'm not having trouble with fermentation as I've had at least a 2-3in. frothing head since pitching. The batch smells fine, definitely alcoholic but still sweet.

I've added only half the sugar (~6#) as per the recipe but any suggestions on adding more? I'm thinking of just straining to secondary and seeing what happens maybe adding 3# more. Should I try and clear some up by filtering to get a good SG before doing any of this? My hydrometer just seems to float like crazy but reads well in tap. Temps not an issue.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Stressbaby]

American persimmons or Asian?

 

[ChrisTom]

Hachiya is the Asian persimmon. I ended up straining and racking into a carboy. After straining out the pulp I ended up with exactly 5 gallons so I was pleased with that. There is a slight astringency that I hope clears up but it was definitely pleasant at 6 days. I think there is just too much CO2 to get a good SG reading.

 

[Gowers Choice]

Racked my six batches off the sludge tonight. Went from 30 gal of wine and sludge, down to around 15-16 gal's of straight wine. Blended a batch of cotes de blanc's with a natural yeast batch, and blended a batch of champagne with some cotes de blanc. Will bottle late February.

 

[Stressbaby]

Gowers,
Could you post your recipe(s)?

 

[Gowers Choice]

All of our wine is very basic. Just hand picked fruit, yeast and sugar. The persimmon is a little different in that we cut the persimmon slop with water while in the primary. Other than that we use 2 lbs of sugar per gallon of wine, so 10 lbs for a 5 gal carboy. It's usually 2-5 days in the primary for most batches, and then 120 days in the carboy before bottling. For the most part we use Cotes de Blanc yeast for all our wine. I have several cousins and uncles who never add store bought yeast to their wine, it's always the natural yeast off the fruit. The batch of persimmon I did this year with the natural yeast probably had the best flavor of the 6 batches we made.

All this comes from my grandfathers recipe/methods which he brought over from Germany in the late 1800's.

 

[Gowers Choice]

btw, we made our persimmon in two different batches. Roughly 50 lbs of persimmons cut with around 12 gal's of water. This made three 5 gal carboys worth. For the first 3 days we stirred the mixture up regularly while in the primary, then gave it 2 days the settle and siphoned off the top. There was still plenty of fruit suspended in it, because the carboys still ended up being around 25%-33% sludge.

 

[Stressbaby]

I collected about 60# last year and I'm finally getting around to making some wine from them.

This batch, intended to yield 3 gal:
20# persimmons
3 cans Welch's white grape concentrate
Sugar: 5#
Campden:4 tabs
Yeast nutrient: 3t stepwise
Yeast energizer: 3/4t
Tannin: 1t
Pectic enzyme: 12t divided
Acid blend: 5T
4 gal water

SG starts at 1.085. pH 3.06. Going with K1-V1116 and standard energizer/nutrient (rather than GoFerm/Fermaid-K), but might bump that to 4t of nutrient. The plan is to watch the temps closely today and tomorrow and not let the thing heat up. Bentonite day 3.

 

[Stressbaby]

Update: down to 1.020, so far so good. Very hard to know the proper volume on this wine considering the fruit bag is around 1.5 gal and the pulp will be another 2 gal or so. It is up to the top of the bucket but hasn't overflowed. Rotating ice packs every 8-12 hours and with that I've been successful keeping the temp under 21C (70F) for the entire fermentation. Added bentonite 10g this morning.

 

[ChrisTom]

Finished first batch of persimmon wine! Using Jack Keller's recipe (using D47), very roughly adjusted for the brix of the must, turned out great. The wine at bottling was totally drinkable and resembled. Since the initial SG is a mystery I have no idea what alcohol content is. Very crisp and refreshing profile though. I have absolutely no qualms other than realizing I need a hydrometer with a greater scale or multiple hydrometers as the initial SG was higher than I could read. I let it dry out/bulk age for six months and bottled last weekend. I bottled 187ml x 48 as single serving samplers for friends and 750ml x 12 for aging.

 

[Stressbaby]

ChrisTom,
Very nice!
I actually just opened a bottle of my persimmon wine from 2012...very pleased to say that it knocked my socks off! Very nice dry white wine! Unfortunately I ruined 2/3 of this batch by trying to oak it. However, I still have 40# of persimmons from last year.

 

[Stressbaby]

Update:
I bumped the fruit in this batch to 20# and that was a volumetric mistake. By doing so, I 1) added 25% more pulp and 2) reduced the room in the primary. So now after getting the wine off the pulp I am 1/2 gal short of the 3 gal target. I'm hopeful but not optimistic that the pulp will settle a little more and I can squeeze another 1/2 gal out of the 1.5gal of pulpy stuff I have left.

 

[Stressbaby]

Update:

The 3 gallon batch above has fallen clear thanks to the bentonite. It is a little sharp, so I started a second 3 gallon batch, similar recipe:

16# persimmons
3 cans Welch's white grape concentrate
Sugar: 6#
Campden:4 tabs
GoFerm 1t
Fermaid K 1 tsp, divided
Tannin: 1t
Pectic enzyme: 12t divided
Acid blend: 2T + 1t
4.5 gal water
K1-V1116

SG 1.085. pH 3.59. I used Fermaid K and GoFerm. Ice packs to keep the temp down. More sugar, presumably due to the fact that there is more water. We're at 1.020 and so far, so good.

The plan is to blend these two batches and get something with a level of acidity I like.

 

[kfrinkle]

Finally bottled my 2012 persimmon. Came out really nice and smooth, has a serious honey undertone to it. Started two 5 gallon batches today with what was left in my freezer. Used the ricer, which helped. I have up on measuring SG and just threw about 6 lbs in each bucket. I had almost 5 gallons of awesome puree to begin with, split it into a 6 and 4 gallon batch in my 7 and 5 gallon plastic primaries.

I did try making a batch in my 30 gallon stainless steel primary last fall. That ended up being a disaster. I got 5 gallons out of it, still bubbling in a carboy right now. I did not ricer the persimmons on that batch though. Never again.

It was a good persimmon year for sure, but I will be glad when these two batches I just started are under airlock. What a pain this stuff is to make, thank god it tastes great. But you gotta do what you gotta do, I needed my freezer space back!

 

[Stressbaby]

It was a good persimmon year for sure, but I will be glad when these two batches I just started are under airlock. What a pain this stuff is to make, thank god it tastes great. But you gotta do what you gotta do, I needed my freezer space back!

Haha. I'm still not sure I agree with you that it tastes "great." I've made 150# of persimmons into wine now over 7-8 batches and I have yet to have one I would call great. I have high hopes for the last two batches.

 

[kfrinkle]

You know, when the weather gets cold this fall, remind me and I will ship you a bottle of mine...

I used champagne yeast on my current two batches and things were already going to town this AM. One bucket is still seriously too think, the other has a little more fluidity to it. I am thinking of adding a little more water to the thicker sludged bucket, thoughts?