Finer Wine Kit Petite Sirah

[Vlabruz]

I was setting here enjoying my 2022 Petite Sirah and doing a comparison with a David Michael Petite Petite (Petite Sirah). I was wondering what makes the David Micheals Petite Sirah so purple compared to the FWK Petite Sirah that looks more red. Both are Lodi vineyards. Is it because of the type of grape skins that are with the FWK?

Interesting because last night we had Bogle petite next to the fwk and the Bogle is purple too. Colors our tongue.

 

[silverbullet07]

I have a bottle of Bogle Petite Sarah. I will have to make a note to check the color out.

Yesterday I reconstituted the juice of the FWK PS and I will be pitching the yeast today. I added 1/2 tsp of ColorPro to the must and skins. I should be able to see how it compares in a couple months.

 

[Winephile]

I was setting here enjoying my 2022 Petite Sirah and doing a comparison with a David Michael Petite Petite (Petite Sirah). I was wondering what makes the David Micheals Petite Sirah so purple compared to the FWK Petite Sirah that looks more red. Both are Lodi vineyards. Is it because of the type of grape skins that are with the FWK?

pH is the usual culprit, ceteris paribus. Higher pH tends more to purple spectrum in reds.

 

[Gilmango]

Both are used for coloring -- Petit Verdot in Bordeaux, both around the world.

Oddly enough, Petite Sirah was developed in France, but AFAIK, it's not legal to grow there. The Rhone Rangers of CA consider it a Rhone grape because of its origins.

Petite Sirah originated in France, where it is known as Durif. It is pretty rare in France but not illegal to grow, it just may not be an accepted blending grape in many of the best known French wine regions which hurts its demand in France. Durif is popular in Australia, and Petite Sirah is popular in America. 90% of wines labeled Petite Sirah in California proved to be Durif when tested. It is named after Dr. Francois Durif who discovered it in 1880 in Rhone. This new grape resulted from a cross of Syrah pollen germinating a Peloursin vine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durifhttps://winefolly.com/deep-dive/petite-sirah-wine-guide/https://www.bbr.com/grape-zz-petite-sirah-durif

 

[winemaker81]

Petite Sirah originated in France, where it is known as Durif. It is pretty rare in France but not illegal to grow, it just may not be an accepted blending grape in many of the best known French wine regions which hurts its demand in France

AFAIK, it's not legal to grow in the Rhone Valley. The major areas (Rhone, Bordeaux, Burgundy, Loire, Champagne) are tightly locked down under law. Most of the remainder of France is pretty open.

EDIT: see @silverbullet07's detailed answer farther down stream.

 

[Brant]

FWIW, I made a FWK Forte PS in Feb of 2022 and bottled in December. I followed directions with no changes save for bulk aging 9+ months and skipping sorbate.

The FWK is a far cry from Michael David's PS. I think it tastes harsh and slightly bitter. I hope another year in the bottle improves it. As far as color goes, I dont believe its color is any different then the other FWK I've made (both cab sauvs, sangiovese, super tuscan, merlot). It is not a deep/dark red or purple- not that I care what it looks like. I'm 99.9% more concerned with taste.

Michael Davids PS is a top 10 PS wine for me and the FWK PS is probably my least favorite out of all the FWK's I've made to date. It was disappointing but I still have hope that time might smooth it out.

 

[silverbullet07]

FWIW, I made a FWK Forte PS in Feb of 2022 and bottled in December. I followed directions with no changes save for bulk aging 9+ months and skipping sorbate.

The FWK is a far cry from Michael David's PS. I think it tastes harsh and slightly bitter. I hope another year in the bottle improves it. As far as color goes, I dont believe its color is any different then the other FWK I've made (both cab sauvs, sangiovese, super tuscan, merlot). It is not a deep/dark red or purple- not that I care what it looks like. I'm 99.9% more concerned with taste.

Michael Davids PS is a top 10 PS wine for me and the FWK PS is probably my least favorite out of all the FWK's I've made to date. It was disappointing but I still have hope that time might smooth it out.

I did a 6 week Extended maceration on mine and it was a year old on 8-3-2023 and bottled since 5-25-23. It is pretty good but I have to decant it and no colder then 62-65F or room Temp. I'm hoping at 18 -24 months it will be quite nice. People I have let drink it liked it as well. Hope yours get better.

 

[Brant]

I did a 6 week Extended maceration on mine and it was a year old on 8-3-2023 and bottled since 5-25-23. It is pretty good but I have to decant it and no colder then 62-65F or room Temp. I'm hoping at 18 -24 months it will be quite nice. People I have let drink it liked it as well. Hope yours get better.

Decanting helped it a little but not as much as I would hope. I didn't add glycerin when I bottled. I think it would've helped. I think EM might have also helped smooth it out. From my limited experience, the wines I did EM on are easier to drink.

 

[Gilmango]

AFAIK, it's not legal to grow in the Rhone Valley. The major areas (Rhone, Bordeaux, Burgundy, Loire, Champagne) are tightly locked down under law. Most of the remainder of France is pretty open.

I'm probably getting too technical here, but it is not illegal to grow Durif, Marselan, Pinot Noir, Nebbiolo, Touriga Nacional, or Cabernet Sauvingnon in the Rhone or any other wine region. However, it is illegal to put any of those grapes into a bottle which claims to be a "Cotes du Rhone" (or Bordeaux, Burgundy, Loire, or Champagne) and that is simply because it is not one of the many red or white grapes which is accepted for inclusion in a wine with that designation. Similar restrictions on what wine grape varietals may be added, apply to wines labeled Bordeaux, Burgundy, Loire, Champagne (and the same goes for other famous European wine regions, but generally doesn't apply to the new world where varietals are generally listed on the labels). But again, you can grow whatever grapes you want in those regions, but when you bottle them you simply could not label them as being from that region.

For most wine grape growers that would be financially ruinous, as there is a ton of cachet which is associated with wines which are labeled Burgundy, Bordeaux, Champagne, Rhone, or Loire or the various smaller villages or regions within those broader labels (sub-appellations in U.S. lingo, AOCs in France, DOCs or even better DOCGs in Italy).

But, if you have a huge reputation or ego or cash to burn, you might grow whatever you like (or blend in whatever you like), and sell it as de-classified wine (Vin de France in France fka Vin de Table; IGT or even Vino da Tavola in Italy).

So there is a movement towards freedom from old winemaking restrictions in France, Italy, Spain and other old world countries with restrictive laws, just look at this marketing for Vin de France: Vin De France | go.sevenfifty.com

A huge success story here are the now widely celebrated as "Super Tuscans" (generally blends of Sangiovese with Bordeaux varietals) now fetch huge $ and have huge cachet, but they had to use the Vino da Tavola label when they first came out. This eventually led to the creation of a new, higher designation, IGT for such wines:
SUPER TUSCAN: This useful but unofficial term emerged in the 1970s, to describe a particular set of high-quality Tuscan wines which were precluded from claiming DOC or DOCG status because they broke traditional Italian winemaking norms (foreign grape varieties were used, and the wines were often matured in small, new oak barrels). Several of these wines earned global recognition and astronomical price tags - hence 'Super Tuscan'. Originally these wines had to be labeled as Vino da Tavola because they contravened the stringent, tradition-focused DOC laws. This situation ultimately led to the creation of the IGT category, with its relatively relaxed production rules.

Similarly, one of the oddest wine regions in the old world, Ribera Del Duero, allows way more 'foreign grapes' than it does other well known Spanish grapes, and that all goes back to Vega Sicilia's huge success:
In 1864, Eloy Lecanda y Chaves, a Bordeaux-trained Spanish winemaker, established Vega Sicilia east of Valladolid. He planted his vineyards with Tinto Fino, as well as the Bordeaux varieties Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, and Malbec, and went on to create artful wine blends that had significant commercial success. Vega Sicilia remains one of Ribera del Duero’s most notable producers today.

The appellation pertains almost exclusively to red and rosado (rosé) wines. To be recognized as DO, red wines must contain a minimum of 75 percent Tempranillo, though most are made with 100 percent. Blends may contain up to 25 percent Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot, or Malbec. No more than 5 percent Garnacha or Albillo, altogether, may be added. Rosado wines must be made with a minimum of 50 percent of the region’s authorized red varieties. For the new white wines category, DO regulations required that at least 75 percent of the grape used is Albillo.


https://daily.sevenfifty.com/regions/ribera-del-duero/

 

[winemaker81]

I'm probably getting too technical here, but it is not illegal to grow Durif, Marselan, Pinot Noir, Nebbiolo, Touriga Nacional, or Cabernet Sauvingnon in the Rhone or any other wine region. However, it is illegal to put any of those grapes into a bottle which claims to be a "Cotes du Rhone" (or Bordeaux, Burgundy, Loire, or Champagne) and that is simply because it is not one of the many red or white grapes which is accepted for inclusion in a wine with that designation.

No, you're fine. The details are important. Well, not directly to you and me, but it's best to not propagate incorrect statements as fact.

Good catch. Thanks for the detailed answer.

 

[silverbullet07]

I'm on the east coast USA, and have limited access to grapes, and Touriga Nacional is not one of them. Besides, ColorPro does more than just provide color -- according to Scott Labs:

• Wines made using COLOR PRO appear to have deeper, darker, and more intense color.
• Gentle extraction of tannins which positively impacts wine structure
• Mouthfeel is positively impacted; wines appear rounder and herbaceous and veggie characters are minimized
• Improved clarity, yield, and filterability

Increasing yield, e.g., get more wine when pressing, is highly important.

@winemaker81

Since I have the Color Pro that I used in my last batch of Petite Sirah, Is this good to add to all reds? I will be doing a Zinfandel soon and was wondering if I should add the Color Pro to it also?

 

[winemaker81]

Since I have the Color Pro that I used in my last batch of Petite Sirah, Is this good to add to all reds? I will be doing a Zinfandel soon and was wondering if I should add the Color Pro to it also?

If you want what Color Pro does, yes. It's good for any red.

I have used Color Pro with: Merlot, Zinfandel, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Malbec, Petit Verdot, Tempranillo, Grenache, Syrah, Petite Sirah, Mourvedre, and Chambourcin.

I've also used it with FWK Forte Super Tuscan, Merlot, Syrah, and Petite Sirah -- all with 2 skin packs per kit.

 

[silverbullet07]

If you want what Color Pro does, yes. It's good for any red.

I have used Color Pro with: Merlot, Zinfandel, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Malbec, Petit Verdot, Tempranillo, Grenache, Syrah, Petite Sirah, Mourvedre, and Chambourcin.

I've also used it with FWK Forte Super Tuscan, Merlot, Syrah, and Petite Sirah -- all with 2 skin packs per kit.

Thank You